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Author Topic: WoW (even easier) Mode.  (Read 4871 times)

Darth Xanith

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Re: WoW (even easier) Mode.
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2011, 03:54:04 PM »

Yea, a lot of the hurt feelings I think come from this. It is pretty tough to push so many hours into content only to have it nerfed over time and basically have to start all over again.

The problem is that it's started to happen before every tier release and has done since Wrath. Is it a problem if when Tier 9 is released they make Tier 7 easier? No of course not. a 15% nerf across the board to firelands normal AND hardmode when they are just announcing the final raid? Now we have issues.
If you take an extreme example I was playing ICC and while my guild was working on the only compelling bosses in there (the end bosses of each of the 3 wings) the buff got scaled. Suddenly we're given a crutch we didnt need, NOT near when cataclysm came out but much earlier on before we even knew about the Ruby Sanctum.

You cleared the Lich King with a 30% buff - Blizzard basically said "Erathor, you'll never be able to do it on your own, here you go, it's on us". I myself did a pug on the LK at the 30% buff once out of morbid curiousity with a group of people I had never played with 7 of before and two shot him. We TWO SHOT the last boss of an expansion with a PUG. If there is a line between accessibility and un-needed crutch for a crappy whiney playerbase you can't even see it at that point. It's somewhere on the horizon past a desert and mountain range.

I have said this time and time again in every thread on this subject since Wrath's launch. The endgame does not need to be easy - simply following burning crusade's model with the 10/25 seperation alone would have been enough- WoW's real problem is that the model is based on "Raid/PVP or GTFO", which is why I believe only an MMO doing something better will preveil going forwards.

I do also respect if you feel like Blizz aren't focused on you enough, you can move on. I just wouldn't be surprised when another MMO (cough cough epic lightsabers for all) goes right down the same path.

There is a reason SWTOR was not on my list of MMO's I fired off in my previous reply, and that's pretty much it. WoW in space (complete with the same mistakes and EA's single bloody minded desire to pump it for all the cash they can) is a complete non-factor IMO.
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Erathor

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Re: WoW (even easier) Mode.
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2011, 04:26:31 PM »

But if I'm being very honest, I wasn't going to down LK until it was nerfed in some way (more like Sindy but that is a long story). Do you know how many PuGs we filtered through until the buff? I'll admit I'm not the greatest gamer in the world, hell I've been slammed so many times you'd think I'd never play ever again. Blizzard has the internal numbers, they know what mechanics are destroying people and I wouldn't be surprised if they watch videos of random attempts on raid bosses with statistic mods. At least I would be very surprised if they didn't. Also remember they are "watching" subscriber's quit reasons as well right?

As a 15 year developer with my own statistics on PuGs I see the trends myself. Blizz adds things like 3D markers and threat indicators into the base game for a reason. There is a 250% difference between a successful raider and someone who is on the tip of failure in 5man heroics and that is -gear (just based on spec/rotation/item enhancement/reforging). I like the amount of choice there is and difference in the power those choices bring. Spending time on more opportunity (attempts) and tools to measure isn't a waste on bad players though.

Maybe WoW does focus too much on raiding. Some of the Molten Front daily quests started to attempt at solo mechanics but after 5 days you are still burnt out. Tol Barad is so bad PvP wise as well.
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Legol

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Re: WoW (even easier) Mode.
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2011, 04:29:01 PM »

I swear I miss playing WoW since I quit back in Feb, but I see crap like this and I'm glad I never went back.  I didn't raid all that much in WOTLK, and even less in TBC, but memories of ZG and MC make me long for those epic sized raids I was used to back in EQ.

*sighs*. This is why i'm enjoying COD black ops and LoL, none of this dumbing down the dumbed down content
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Darth Xanith

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Re: WoW (even easier) Mode.
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2011, 05:14:19 PM »

Maybe WoW does focus too much on raiding. Some of the Molten Front daily quests started to attempt at solo mechanics but after 5 days you are still burnt out. Tol Barad is so bad PvP wise as well.

There is no maybe about it, WoW definately focuses on raiding or pvp way too much and has almost nothing at maximum level for anyone who has no interest or isnt suited to either.

You've defended WoW a lot but it's time for honesty and your last post was refreshing for that so let's continue with this question - Are you *really* happy that your playing experience in raids was about Blizzard slamming the nerf bat down on every encounter until your group of randoms (many of which likely "just got into raiding" that tier with the way they reset everything each tier) could beat it down because the bar was that low they could trip up over it and onto epics?

In your own words, you were not going to beat the last bosses until they nerfed it and it's no wonder - raiding was in the first place an activity that required you co-ordinate a group of people who would work together and learn an encounter before defeating it. By the time Burning crusade came around they had seen the metrics and realised that 40 people was too many, cutting it to 10 and 25 (which in hindsight was a mistake, they should have made it consistant to help guilds navigate recruiting drama). Those 10/25 needed to know their stuff.
In Wrath they made it all 10/25 with players who needed to REALLY know their shit. They got shouted at for Naxx being too easy and so the followup raid was quite frankly the best that expansion, before those who tried to pug got annihilated once they got to the inside.

It was the same with ICC, guilds progressed the content and pugs got annihilated - people were going into ICC who had never played Tier 7-8 and so were trying to "learn to raid" in the Last raid of the expansion. We've shouted at you about this for ages but being honest does that not feel just a touch off to you?  

Quite honestly, and I do not mean this insultingly - If playing PUGs was your prefered method of raiding, you quite frankly were not cut out to be a raider. The fact that you felt that should be what you were doing and supported/eagerly awaited them nerfing it because "what else is there to do?" is their failing. Blizzard has no answers or ability to cater for you and the "easy mode" raids are a prime example of that. Where are the quests or story progression for people at level cap? If you log in for an hour what are you supposed to be able to do in that time? WoW has no answers for those questions and have not had any since Wrath.

Stick a fork in WoW, it's done. We are about to see a wave of games much better equiped from the ground up to entertain everyone who plays them and I cannot wait for their release.

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Erathor

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Re: WoW (even easier) Mode.
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2011, 05:48:25 PM »

PuGs being preferred? I'm not sure I'd go there, although sometimes you get really good new people that way. Trust me I wanted the same 10 each week, but rarely got it and didn't feel justified throwing down the hammer when someone missed. I kind of like the idea that 1or2 goods can make up for 1or2 bads out of 10. Of course this means that 10 good people stomp normal modes and there is no in between. Our 5 man teams stomped Cata heroics out the gate (before the nerfs), but grow that to 10 man and boom a wall!

You could say I shouldn't be a raider and shouldn't feel like I have to at endgame, but I got a taste in Wrath and I'm willing to pay for more. I've also bloodied my face on going after some of the hardest stuff in Cata and know that is plenty for people who "facerolled" Lich King in Wrath to go after today (at least raid wise).

Hell GW2 or the Schilling game may break through big time. I know you all won't believe this but I hope people LOVE them!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 05:59:05 PM by Erathor »
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Octale

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Re: WoW (even easier) Mode.
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2011, 08:07:16 AM »

Quote
As a 15 year developer with my own statistics on PuGs I see the trends myself. Blizz adds things like 3D markers and threat indicators into the base game for a reason. There is a 250% difference between a successful raider and someone who is on the tip of failure in 5man heroics and that is -gear (just based on spec/rotation/item enhancement/reforging).
So you espouse the false correlation between completion metrics and quality software design?  It's a shame, really, that you're on the inside of the industry, collaborating in the systemic deconstruction of a hobby I've loved my entire life, and I'm on the outside fighting against the people who spend their days answering the only relevant question life ever asks ("Can you?") with an emphatic, "No, I can't!" and the developers who believe the quality of their software design is based on whether or not people who lose at all aspects of their life can finish it.
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Erathor

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Re: WoW (even easier) Mode.
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2011, 05:51:33 PM »

Actually all you ask:
 Should any content be done in a random group PuG?
 If so, what and by what standard?
 Take metrics.
 Make adjustments to meet the original requirement.

The first 2 questions could probably be argued to death in some conference room.
So you tell me if your metrics are showing the equal tiered content where one is at say 8% completion and one is at 56%. Also one of the mechanics on the 8% fight is attributing 72% of the deaths. What do you do as a developer? I know, leave it right... Hell why even measure at all?

Blizz has this behemoth running for 6+ years. It is because they take these metrics. They don't always make adjustments that everyone likes. The fact that they try and bring things in line is absolutely amazing. They have shown time and time again that balance means something in gaming mechanics at the high end and the low end, BOTH.

It isn't about 100% completion and sometimes not about completion at all, way more complicated than that or the above that I posted. Activity, frequency/# of attempts, group compositions, time, non-intended easy kills... All of which lead tweaks. The bar intended for the middle should be in the middle and that middle needs to make sense.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 06:17:24 PM by Erathor »
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