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Author Topic: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge  (Read 5083 times)

Ebion

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2011, 10:27:49 AM »

Honestly, yea, I am.

Instead of being gracious and admitting that you're wrong, you've decided to take whatever shred of integrity and dignity you had left and burn it. I'm honestly surprised you chose to take this path, generally speaking you've always had strong opinions but I've never thought of you as one to sacrifice your integrity just to cling to a poorly worded, argued point. But hey, it's fine. At the very least I've provided you with a blog post and even possibly a rant/whinge on Show X, so you're not coming out of this completely empty handed.
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Octale

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2011, 11:37:30 AM »

Honestly, yea, I am.

Instead of being gracious and admitting that you're wrong, you've decided to take whatever shred of integrity and dignity you had left and burn it. I'm honestly surprised you chose to take this path, generally speaking you've always had strong opinions but I've never thought of you as one to sacrifice your integrity just to cling to a poorly worded, argued point. But hey, it's fine. At the very least I've provided you with a blog post and even possibly a rant/whinge on Show X, so you're not coming out of this completely empty handed.

I'm not wrong; my direct experiences confirmed what I have said all along.  I tried to make those experiences as unbalanced as possible in the favor of the game I don't care for at the direction of the people who really love it.  It shocks me that you can be so dismissive about my experiences.  As I said, in response to Vaul and TWB (which is a fair criticism of the post, but I was doing the best I could with what I had) I'll happily Fraps another LoL game and add a more clinical review of it as a follow on post.
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Ebion

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2011, 12:45:50 PM »

Dismissive? You've been dismissive and evasive of every argument, question, and rebuttle that myself, Vaulisel, and TWB have made since the first thread!

I don't dismiss your experiences, in face I've taken them well into account and I've been telling you that you're doing it wrong. But no, your argument has been "I did it this way and you can't say that I gotta do it another way because my way should work." Well here's the news, sometimes your way doesn't win games.

And besides that, after you dismissed all arguments on what you could fix in your gameplay(Different champions, different item builds.) you go as far to say that you wouldn't have been as bad off if the people you're playing with didn't have runes/masteries, which is true, but not at all to the degree you've exaggerated it to be. Runes and Masteries give a decent boost, but it isn't insurmountable, as has been stated by every person in this community whose played LoL to and past Summoner 30 including me and that's what we've been trying to tell you.

Look, you had a bad experience. It was bad because you chose to play an In-House in a persistent game and nobody had the foresight to say "Oh hey, so nobody can cry foul, we should all play Runeless/Mastery free."

I also don't dismiss your complaints with early game, but you have to take my own into account as well. It's not typical of a game to not have early lane-kills, jungle harrass, or other shenanigans, it really isn't. If the Pub you were in had really passive players, that's rather uncommon, but I guess it's not all that atypical of mid-low summoner level play, as generally everybody is trying to avoid being "that guy" who feeds 4 deaths before 5 minutes.
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Sekani

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2011, 03:06:17 PM »

Dismissive? You've been dismissive and evasive of every argument, question, and rebuttle that myself, Vaulisel, and TWB have made since the first thread!

I don't dismiss your experiences, in face I've taken them well into account and I've been telling you that you're doing it wrong. But no, your argument has been "I did it this way and you can't say that I gotta do it another way because my way should work." Well here's the news, sometimes your way doesn't win games.

And besides that, after you dismissed all arguments on what you could fix in your gameplay(Different champions, different item builds.) you go as far to say that you wouldn't have been as bad off if the people you're playing with didn't have runes/masteries, which is true, but not at all to the degree you've exaggerated it to be. Runes and Masteries give a decent boost, but it isn't insurmountable, as has been stated by every person in this community whose played LoL to and past Summoner 30 including me and that's what we've been trying to tell you.

Look, you had a bad experience. It was bad because you chose to play an In-House in a persistent game and nobody had the foresight to say "Oh hey, so nobody can cry foul, we should all play Runeless/Mastery free."

I also don't dismiss your complaints with early game, but you have to take my own into account as well. It's not typical of a game to not have early lane-kills, jungle harrass, or other shenanigans, it really isn't. If the Pub you were in had really passive players, that's rather uncommon, but I guess it's not all that atypical of mid-low summoner level play, as generally everybody is trying to avoid being "that guy" who feeds 4 deaths before 5 minutes.

I think we're all in agreement that Octale's critique of LoL had some serious stylistic flaws, but this sounds like you're asking for too much.

If a person has to be told how to have fun playing a game, then one of two things are true: either the game and the player are simply not a good match, or the game itself is fundamentally flawed. I'm going to assume option one is true in this case, so time to just let it go.

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2011, 04:49:44 PM »

I think that Sekani makes a real important and good point about games fitting different people.  In a big way, Octale and I are completely opposite on the LoL/HoN debate.  I cannot seem to "get" HoN to save my life.  I still suffer through every game I play on it.  I really appreciate the efforts they have made to make the game more accesible for noobs like me, but I still can't understand the play itself.  I have come to fully understand how the game plays in LoL.  I understand the roles and strageties as well as the way the game moves from early thru mid to late game play.  HoN has always felt like a complete cluster F to me, but it could easily be due to my familiarity with LoL.  The games are soo different from each other that it could actually be a detriment for anyone who has focused on one versus the other.  I doubt that Octale could ever really come on board with the mechanics of League of Legends, much like how I cannot seem to accept how you have to play characters in Heros of Newarth.  The game continues to frustrate me.  It isn't because HoN is a "bad" game.  I think that it just isn't a game for me.  Maybe I will do my own version of this "Pepsi" challenge.  It will likely be as difficult for me to do a fair evaluation.  Mainly because I have spent soo much time in LoL that it is comfortable.  I have been playing with HoN and will try to give it another serious try.

Ebion

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2011, 01:56:08 AM »

Your arguments are duly noted Sekani, I appreciate it. The problem being though that then Octale registers a complaint like "Why should I have to put effort into the game before I have fun?" sounds to me like the populist whining argument about Epics in WoW. "Why should I have to be Heroic geared before you carry me through tier 13? Why should I have to move out of the fire to win epix?" Sounds a lot to me like the "Why should I have to play a few dozen games to get a feeling for the game and at the same time hit Summoner 30 before I'm on equal footing with the people who have already done that?"

Octale's always known that LoL is a persistent game, it's not like it was news to anybody. I just find it amusing that the "Destroyer of Populists" in one persistent game would use the same argument in another.

But moreover, we've(being Aristile, myself, TWB and Vaulisel) already told him everything he needs to hear. If he chooses to act upon them and actually has fun then that's great! If he doesn't than that's fine too, but I wasn't going to sit around and listen to him badmouth the game when he obviously doesn't care for it on contrived bases that really boil down to "I don't wanna put in effort because the other game doesn't make me." If he finds that to be a game breaker for him than fine, but it doesn't make LoL a bad game.
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TheWanderingBard

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2011, 06:13:14 AM »

To be honest, with respect to Octale, I don't think a "Pepsi Challenge" is the way to compare the games. If you want to work out which you, personally prefer, then sure. But I think we're all pretty clear by now on which game Octale (and most other members of the community) enjoy. If you want to actually try and prove one is a better designed game than the other, then you need to take a different approach; a Pepsi Challenge simply involves too many variables and depends too much on individual factors for you to try and apply the results to all games and all players. You would be better off having a balanced panel review two replays of competitive games which were well-received by the community, and use examples from that to contrast the two and prove your points.

Alternatively, seeing as this argument clearly is and continues to be of great interest to the VTW community, I proposed to Ventrilo the other night that we could organise a HoN vs. LoL debate as a special one-off broadcast. This would be moderated and follow normal debating rules, to try and cut past personal insults and tangents and make a concise, definitive statement as to the points on each side. If people really do have convincing arguments based in mechanics and design rather than opinion or personal experience, it would be the best way to ensure they are made clear. Am I alone in my debating fetish, or does anyone else think this would be a good way to curtail this endless squabble?
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Ebion

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2011, 12:33:20 PM »

I'm obligated to tell Bard this:

(11:32:56 AM) Aristile: Hunt him down, tell him if he's serious about a debate he needs to wait for me to get out of the hospital
(11:33:00 AM) Aristile: Before he does shit

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Aristile

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2011, 12:35:29 PM »

I'm obligated to tell Bard this:

(11:32:56 AM) Aristile: Hunt him down, tell him if he's serious about a debate he needs to wait for me to get out of the hospital
(11:33:00 AM) Aristile: Before he does shit


I meant if you catch him on vent/steam or something dingaling. I'm not trying to advertise my situation to the planet. /facehoof
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Octale

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2011, 02:22:07 PM »

Would we cover any new ground from the show Doc, Dak, Hostile and I did in the OnHVW days?  If not, then's there's little sense in doing that kind of show other than to let everyone have their say, which I dare say would devolve at a rapid pace.

However, should all the pricipals decide they can keep the conversation above belt, and we can cover new ground, I'm happy to set it up.

I also want to report that I have 2 LoL games Frapsed for a more clinical review.  The game we played that ended up 2.5 v 5 I don't count.  The other game with 3 other VTW folk and 1 PuG (a crazy-good Viegar) I will be doing a review of.  The short version is it was fun enough.  I got a ton of assists again (16 I think), but very few kills again.  So, it seems I suck, but I don't suck enough to be the albatross that sinks my team.  Worst place to be in a game, imo.
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