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Author Topic: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge  (Read 5084 times)

EpisodeBot

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Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« on: August 06, 2011, 11:43:03 AM »

The MOBA Pepsi Challenge

However, in the face of “you suck at LoL, so you hate it” ignorance on the forums.  I decided over the weekend—Friday night to be exact—to do the Pepsi Challenge with HoN and LoL.  I played one game of each.  In the HoN game, I played in an all PuG game and randomed my hero, as I would have in DotA.  In LoL, I played it as the LoL fans in the VTW Productions community have suggested, and played on a team of all VTW Productions members and picked my hero.  Here are the results.

http://www.vtwproductions.com/octale-blog/2011/8/6/the-moba-pepsi-challenge.html
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Aristile

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2011, 12:58:26 PM »

Obvious bait is obvious. Do I dare take it... hm...

Quote
No event in the known universe is as boring as the first 10 minutes of a LoL game.  This is now a verified fact, and no amount of fanboi/fangurl argument will reverse this truth.

This pretty much made me look at this blog and go. "Well Octale is trying to get a rise out of someone with this, and the fact he's stating opinion is infallible fact pretty much rips all the credibility out of everything."
I'm sincerely disappointed Octale. This blog post is completely one eyed and all I got from it was "I hate LoL and I'm sticking to it cause I didn't have fun." Fair enough, that's your opinion.

Sad to say Octale, but just spouting that you hate something doesn't make it terrible. I'm sorry you didn't have fun, but this is... just bait to get a rise out of people. I can't see anything else. If you hate it so much then just don't play.

Also...this... jargan...
Quote
lack of choice in character selection (not just heroes that are available, but characters having roles is limiting.  Items ought to make the character a tank or DPS.), the “team focused” aspects that devolve into gaudy spell effect displays, and an opening 10 minutes that always makes me wish I could skip to fun part.

This is just silly Octale. None of this makes any sense at all, nor does your bit about teamfights. I'm not going to sit and argue you, because it's pretty clear that would go nowhere, but It just seems to me like your doing your absolute best to just hate this game. If that's the case I have a simple solution for you Octale. Don't play. If it's not your style then don't play. I have fun with the game and so do many others in the community. Sorry, but LoL must be doing SOMETHING right. How else could we have fun.

I'm sounding like the most broken record of all time, but you are beyond feet-in-cement locked on hating this game; and that's really all I can tell. It's not worth even making a point about the individual bits of content because you'll just troll me and say "It's bad because it is!". Or your opinion will say things are bad for you that I quite enjoy about the game.

Sigh, I took that bait so hard, and I know it too. Oh well. Sorry Octale, but I honestly can say from the quality of this blogpost as a whole, the lack of proper analysis, and the obvious bait this blogpost is; this is easily your worst.


« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 01:43:46 PM by Aristile »
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Ebion

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2011, 01:16:16 PM »

Well, you've done my job so well for me that I really don't need to do my own write-up. Thank you Octale! <3

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Vaulisel

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2011, 01:36:36 PM »

Just wow. I don't play MOBAs, and therefore have no reason to support or defend LoL, HoN, DotA or any other abbreviation you care to name. But that blog post was pretty awful. As someone with no reason to prefer either game, that post made very little in the way of compelling arguments in favour of HoN or against LoL.

Your explanation of your HoN game's merits seems to boil down to your assertion that nothing ever happens in the first ten minutes of LoL, but in HoN it does. You describe three events in the first 10 minutes. One of them has no detail, for all I know that death was due to suicidal stupidity that could get you killed in any game. The second is something you attribute to LoL-style behaviour, so if the players were playing "HoN-style" it would not have happened. The third was getting ganked at the 10-minute mark by a properly set up attack. I have your assurances alone that this is impossible to execute in LoL, a game which you avowedly hate.

You describe a 12-minute tower kill, and then go on to say that there have been no "clusterfuck"s like what would happen in LoL. Of course, you cite a minimum of 10-minutes of do-nothing time in a LoL game. This would imply that in the next two minutes, LoL inevitably has a multiplayer dogpile, and HoN is somehow superior because this two minutes from 40 is clear of team fights.

You get ganked again and then describe a "team fight" which you claim is different from a LoL team fight. No compelling argument is made asserting the way in which this is superior to the LoL team fight, and I, the lay-reader, am left to assume the devil is in the invisible details.

You describe a second team fight, this time not attempting to distinguish it from the LoL version. I am again requested to take it on faith that your hand-wave "it is a skirmish really" still applies and still is somehow better than whatever LoL offers. You follow up by getting ditched by your team and murdered, fine. Then you describe what I assume is a win.

Your LoL game description I hope for your sake is this lacking simply due to lack of a replay function. You say the first 10 minutes is dull as ditchwater, but don't describe anything that actually takes place, or support your earlier assertion that deaths in this phase are all but impossible. You describe the game as dominated by harassing and team fights in mid. You make no factual distinction between LoL's "harassing and team fights" and HoN's yet expect the reader to believe your assertion the latter is better than the former.

You complain about being dead a lot, but this tells me nothing about the quality of the game or its design; it merely tells me you got killed a lot. This is, for all I know, because you are an awful player, or because your team mates were exceptionally bad. No explanation is offered for why you do not deserve to die as often as you do.

You then claim that the last 20 minutes was a solid 5v5 that you are losing, and that this is standard MO for LoL. I can't argue either way, I don't play LoL. But you don't supply me with reasons why this is bad, or what design flaws lead this to happen which are not present in HoN. People spend a lot longer than 20 minutes beating each others' faces in in other genres.

You then embark on an embarrassing tirade of "OMG this game sucks" which spends as much time attacking people who like LoL or disagree with your opinion of it as it does actually arguing against the actual game. I don't want to address design flaws, because all I can do is assume you are not actually fabricating anything and that these flaws exist in LoL. You do not inform the reader what HoN does instead of having these flaws.

All in all, an extremely poor piece which leaves me just as in the dark about each game's relative merits as I was before reading.
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TheWanderingBard

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2011, 01:43:16 PM »

I was gonna pick your post apart Octale, but Vaulisel said everything I would have. Regardless of whether I agree with you or not, posts like this can only hurt your credibility and make your other arguments less convincing by association. If you wanted to convince/show up the diehard LoL supporters, you would have to expand on some of your problems with the game (what "team driven" mechanics fail in LoL, and how do they "devolve into spell effects"?). You could also provide some deeper examples to compensate for (at risk of potentially riling you up) your comparative lack of experience/knowledge concerning LoL.

Also, although I really, really don't care to be involved in a "which is better" fight about mechanics, I am legitimately curious about one part:

Quote
On the contrary, I don’t like LoL because of its glaring design flaws: lack of choice in character selection (not just heroes that are available, but characters having roles is limiting.  Items ought to make the character a tank or DPS.)

I have seen this assertion many, many times during LoL/HoN debates, and I really am wondering what gives people this impression. From everything I can see, it is the other way around; League is the game where many characters can fulfill completely different roles by purchasing other items, whereas HoN is much more set in stone about what heroes can do. In LoL, I can play many tank or support characters as nukers by stacking AP (see Alistar/Gragas/Zilean), I can build Orianna into an autoattacking carry using her passive abilities, I can stack hp on Master Yi or damage on Garen to switch their defined roles, and quite a few heroes have multiple viable, widely-varying roles they can fulfill (Sion and Cho can be built as tanks, nukers or physical dps, with barely a common item between the builds). Indeed, this is a game where I have to use the term "physical dps" instead of "carry", because your carry in LoL is usually whatever hero has the most kills/money. In HoN on the other hand, your hero is essentially locked into the one or two roles he is set - although there may be different builds, they fulfill the same role. If you stack defensive items on Sion in LoL, you have a solid tank. If you stack defensive items on Chronos in HoN, you have a hard-to-kill Chronos who does no damage and will be ignored and killed last in teamfights. If you give Flint and Plague Rider the same carry-focused item builds, Flint is still a far superior carry because his skills and stat progression are actually designed for the role. In HoN rely on their skills, not items, to define their role; the items just determine how they will fulfill it.  I actually prefer HoN's model, but it's still confusing to me how people get the opposite perception.



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Octale

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2011, 07:39:20 PM »

Vaul (and Bard),
Your point is well made.  Unfortunately, at the time I was trying to get this done, I neglected to turn on Fraps to record the LoL game which would have allowed for a far more clinical review of the LoL game; further, to be fair, by the end of the LoL game I was quite frustrated with it.  I thought giving myself the night to sleep on it would help to temper the frustration.  Upon rereading the blog post, it certainly did that.  That said, I'm certainly game to record another game in Fraps and give the game a clinical review akin to the HoN game if that would satisfy you.


To the rest of you not Ebion,
I don't what more you LoL sympathizers want.

I played both games in the same mind set (back to back, in fact), and I gave LoL every conceivable advantage:

I played HoN in a full PuG, and LoL with full VTW folks (i.e. friends).
I randomed my character in HoN (and got one I'd never played before), and I picked my hero in LoL (one of the couple I don't mind so much).
I didn't use voice comms for the HoN game, and I did for the LoL game.
Which was exactly how the LoL fans in this forum TOLD ME HOW TO PLAY IT!

I had more fun in HoN, because HoN IS BETTER DESIGNED than LoL in my opinion.

Also, for those who don't subscribe to Riot Games Double Think, you'll notice I predicted the exact response I would get.  Also notice that I did complement LoL on the thing that I think is designed far and away better than HoN: the item shop UI.

My worst blog post?  It takes more than being an e-sport (worthless in my mind), and being popular in part because it is free (not much more valued in my mind) to qualify as well designed.  Being able to dive into a PuG game, pick a hero at random and be able to give better than you get?  THAT's a well designed game in my mind.

Notice I didn't tell you, or anyone, to not play LoL.  Hell, lots of people play games that aren't the best designed in their genre.  People played D2 long after it was the third best designed Action RPG.

Ebion,
You're, in part, responsible for the blog post, so I wanted you to know that I thought this was the best way for the 2 games to be compared "apples-to-apples".  Maybe what I've learned is that the games are so different, they cannot be compared "apples-to-apples" in the way I was trying.  That's cool with me.  I'm perfectly capable of not going on an anti-LoL crusade, assuming the level of brainwashing comes down from 1984 levels about LoL.  Either way, part of the point of post was to address "you don't play it, so you don't know" that I received from you in the other thread.  Hopefully you can see the intent past the message.
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Ebion

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2011, 01:54:03 AM »

Ebion,
You're, in part, responsible for the blog post, so I wanted you to know that I thought this was the best way for the 2 games to be compared "apples-to-apples".  Maybe what I've learned is that the games are so different, they cannot be compared "apples-to-apples" in the way I was trying.  That's cool with me.  I'm perfectly capable of not going on an anti-LoL crusade, assuming the level of brainwashing comes down from 1984 levels about LoL.  Either way, part of the point of post was to address "you don't play it, so you don't know" that I received from you in the other thread.  Hopefully you can see the intent past the message.

Look, I'm happy that you made a step, granted it was a single one, but a step nonetheless to give LoL a proper chance. However, forgive me if I think your blog post has done a poor job in making any point for an Anti-LoL crusade. I mean, I've made my point in past posts that I thought you haven't really given the game all that much thought, research, or attempt and therefor don't really understand how heroes, roles, and especially item roles differ from HoN to LoL.

For example, you felt that you died too often on Amumu, the Sad Mummy. Amumu is an initiator/tank, his entire role is to, in a teamfight or a gank, Bandage Toss/Flash into the enemy team, start crying(his AoE %health damage), use his AoE Stun ultimate and ensure his teams carries get kills. Generally if you specifically are dying, it's because your Support is non-existent, saved a carry instead of you, or your carries aren't focusing the right targets or otherwise just aren't doing enough damage. Well, that or you engaged out of place, which is entirely possible. Amumu has a lot of CC, but his damage isn't particularly high, he can't really solo much of anything, hence why he's an initiator instead of some sort of Melee Mage like AP Sion.

But, I think we can agree based on the example that I'm willing to spell out everything that you could have done better, but that doesn't really help anything since you're not interested in LoL anyway. I believe we can come to the consensus that LoL and HoN have two different play, hero, and item philosophies and what you think is "broken" from HoN/DotA to LoL is just fine, just that it's radically different from what your used to(Alah, Bonus stats on leveling+levels going higher, items in LoL generally compensate for the damage gap.)

However, the entire reason I felt the need to argue this point so rabidly is because instead of laying out well constructed posts like I might have expected otherwise from you, you just made blanket, arrogant, ignorant statements and quips with no actual data to back any of them up. Not to mention the silly arguments of things like "You can't argue UI" when comparing the two games despite a better UI equaling more time spent in the game and less time fiddling frantically through an overly contrived shop or else fiddling with hotbars. Not to mention the "All LoL heroes are dumbed down HoN heroes" argument. Sure, when dumbed down means rebalanced to fit the metagame. I mean, I can't even see how you'd make the comparison. A "CC everything, Spam AoE" metagame HoN hero has no place in the LoL "Bait the Carry, CC carefully" Metagame.

Case and point: It feels like since you lost Hordak, someone who actually has valid arguments and opinions backed up with fact, your debating skills are really rusty. For example, statements like "I don't what more you LoL sympathizers want," followed by "I played both games in the same mind set" is in direct contradiction of one another. Your bias couldn't be any clearer. How am I supposed to take anything you say on the subject of LoL even remotely seriously after that? I mean, I could take a day to go reread your blog post and pick apart every inconsistency, contradiction, or just flat out ignorant statements like the example above, but is that really necessary? Farbeit for me to hold you to a higher standard Octale, but I am genuinely disappointed.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 02:04:58 AM by Ebion »
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Octale

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2011, 08:06:16 AM »

Ah, so what you want is the thing I won't give: Acknowledgement of what isn't true as an affirmation.

Sorry, I cannot do it.

What I will do is Fraps the next LoL game I play so I can give LoL a clinical review vice a review of impressions and generalities.
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Ebion

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2011, 08:49:21 AM »

Ah, so what you want is the thing I won't give: Acknowledgement of what isn't true as an affirmation.

Sorry, I cannot do it.

What I will do is Fraps the next LoL game I play so I can give LoL a clinical review vice a review of impressions and generalities.

What I want is admission that you spoke before you had the dizziest daydream of what you're talking about, which has been made stunningly clear and approved by the majority of VTW LoL players over the past three threads.

Taking the intellectual highground at this point isn't going to help your case. Your integrity at this point is in shambles and nothing short of admission that you realize that you were wrong is going to fix that. If you want me to agree with your argument, PERSUADE ME using FACTS, not wanton cussing and ad hominem attacks.

The burden of evidence in this entire argument is on you, the accuser. You've done one hell of a job spouting rhetoric, but I've yet to see anything but whining about teamfights, complaining that you don't have access to every hero and complaining that Runes and Masteries are unfair because you choose to play with people who are summoner level 30 with full rune pages AND they in turn choose to employ them against you and just generally claiming that this game is less fun for you ergo it's the worse game.

It doesn't take but four button clicks to empty my rune page and masteries. If your friends at Lan Party are going to play LoL, they should be doing this anyway. If you really think that Docdead's Mundo was powerful because of his runes and masteries and not because of his monstrous scoreline or his item build, you're mistaken. That's what I've been trying to tell you on this front for three threads now. You lost because Docdead outplayed your team and got fed, not because he has more mini-buffs than you do. Not to mention that if you were match-making, you'd be going up against other people who don't have runes or masteries either, so your point about runes and masteries not being balanced is totally moot because, here's the kicker, you're bringing the imbalance upon yourself.
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Octale

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Re: Octale's Blog: The MOBA Pepsi Challenge
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2011, 09:41:55 AM »

<derp>

I sux at LoL and thatz y I hatez it

</derp>

Now are you satisfied?
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