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Author Topic: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here  (Read 7154 times)

AngryBadger

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2010, 05:14:25 PM »

From what I'm hearing most people who think bullying is tolerable or sadly seemingly OK and necessary, I understand that if you don't learn that life sucks and then you die at an early age you can't cope with it in the adult world.  The thing is if you are harassed at work you can sue, but the same thing can't be done at grade school or high school.  If in adult life you are harassed, you can simply leave; you can't do that at school.

The question I ask is: What does bullying teach?
I think the answer is: Everyone hates everyone else just at least a little.  At least that's what I learned.  The only real solution to the problem would be every one gets a gun and if someone hurts your feeling you can shoot them.  This would either end the human race or stop people from being a douche.
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Ebion

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2010, 11:28:13 PM »

The thing is if you are harassed at work you can sue, but the same thing can't be done at grade school or high school.

Except that if you go around suing all of co-workers for harassment of any form YOU become a liability and nobody will tolerate you and you won't have a job for much longer if you can't tolerate harassment.

The question I ask is: What does bullying teach?
I think the answer is: Everyone hates everyone else just at least a little.  At least that's what I learned.  The only real solution to the problem would be every one gets a gun and if someone hurts your feeling you can shoot them.  This would either end the human race or stop people from being a douche.

What you're proposing is highly irrational, though I agree with the concept. When somebody wrongs you, the first thing you WANT to do is retaliate, whether physically or mentally, but if it becomes socially acceptable or otherwise unstoppable to just lash out when you get teased, there would be utter chaos. There is a time and a place for lashing out, but if you do it all the time, it becomes meaningless.
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Thistledown

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2010, 08:50:00 PM »

Quote from: AngryBadger
The only real solution to the problem would be every one gets a gun and if someone hurts your feeling you can shoot them.  This would either end the human race or stop people from being a douche.

We would cease to have a society at that point. Part of us having a society relies on a few key things: truth and safety. If there were no social repercussions to lying or incentives for telling the truth, humans would never trust each other, and would drift apart; we would be come a race of tony bands of companions at best, and die off quickly at worst. If there were no social repercussion for violence, specifically lethal, again the race would branch off in a similar fashion, gathering towards those they trusted and felt safe with. Even so, these small communities of trust and safety would be societies in their own right, still upholding the near universal virtues of truth and safety.

Of course, it doesn't mean everyone is truthful or peaceful, it just means that truth and safety are integral to any long-lasting commune of humans.
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Daz

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2010, 09:01:23 AM »

I think we got off on a tangent on whether bullying is wrong or tolerable.

The rally is a stupid idea that makes people feel better for a while, of course, that goes for any rally.

But I do disagree with Octale when he said the statement "I am someone, and I can change the world." is crap.  I believe if you can make anyone feel good for even a split second you change the world for the positive, and the reverse is true.  You never know who the next Hitler or Napoleon or Churchhill will be.

Name for me one thing you've done that's actually made the world a better place.  33 years on this planet, and I can honestly say, OnHVW included, that I've done a grand total of nothing to make the world a better place.  The point is you don't have to have delusions of grandeur about saving the world or being somebody to live a perfectly happy, normal, moral life.  Deconstructing the Snowflake Myth is a required first step to saving the future, as far as I am concerned.

If you think you're not judged or criticized in your adult life, you're naive.  Most adults have the common courtesy to do it under their breath or do it when you're not around.  Why sugar coat the formative years and paint a picture of a world that is so obviously a lie, just to protect people you are perfectly comfortable giving the power they have away to anyone that will take it.

If you want to you can go join Dostoyevsky and the other existentialists at any time. Just don't tell the 8 year old in public school that he his life is meaningless. The schools are funded by taxes that everyone pays and are open to everyone. If you don't like it you can send your kids to a private school where verbal bullying is tolerated. I just don't want an educational system that crushes the dreams of our children in hopes of "making them stronger" for it. Frankly, I think the whole idea of hurting children to make them stronger is barbaric and stupid.
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Octale

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2010, 11:33:19 AM »

Quote
If you want to you can go join Dostoyevsky and the other existentialists at any time. Just don't tell the 8 year old in public school that he his life is meaningless. The schools are funded by taxes that everyone pays and are open to everyone. If you don't like it you can send your kids to a private school where verbal bullying is tolerated. I just don't want an educational system that crushes the dreams of our children in hopes of "making them stronger" for it. Frankly, I think the whole idea of hurting children to make them stronger is barbaric and stupid.
There a huge difference between acknowledging the insignificance of the individual, and prompting that there's nothing wrong with that insignificance, and telling someone their life is meaningless.  Foster the attainable dreams absolutely, while simultaneously crushing the unattainable dreams (for example, don't fill the 8 year old's head full of nonsense that he/she can be a profession football player when he/she can't even start on his/her Pop Warner team).

None of this has anything to do with teasing or hazing either.  Don't understand the difference?  Then you need perspective, especially if you take hallway teasing and pervert it into believing your life is meaningless.  The only person responsible for that illogical leap is you.
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Daz

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2010, 11:34:21 PM »

Quote
If you want to you can go join Dostoyevsky and the other existentialists at any time. Just don't tell the 8 year old in public school that he his life is meaningless. The schools are funded by taxes that everyone pays and are open to everyone. If you don't like it you can send your kids to a private school where verbal bullying is tolerated. I just don't want an educational system that crushes the dreams of our children in hopes of "making them stronger" for it. Frankly, I think the whole idea of hurting children to make them stronger is barbaric and stupid.
There a huge difference between acknowledging the insignificance of the individual, and prompting that there's nothing wrong with that insignificance, and telling someone their life is meaningless.  Foster the attainable dreams absolutely, while simultaneously crushing the unattainable dreams (for example, don't fill the 8 year old's head full of nonsense that he/she can be a profession football player when he/she can't even start on his/her Pop Warner team).

None of this has anything to do with teasing or hazing either.  Don't understand the difference?  Then you need perspective, especially if you take hallway teasing and pervert it into believing your life is meaningless.  The only person responsible for that illogical leap is you.

This is getting into philosophy and life principles. We aren't filling their heads with unattainable goals "like being a pro football player". The entire I am somebody pledge was written by high school kids who were fed up with bullying. Not by teachers or educational policy makers. From what I can tell the intention was to encourage kids to report bullying, not to increase self esteem.

Now we can debate the advantages and disadvantages of it all day but the fact is our culture favors the infamous "snowflake" idea. Everything from the movies to the major religion in America tells children and adults that they are special and have a purpose. When it comes down to it, their your kids and you can tell them whatever you want. That is the parent's choice and it is their responsibility, not the local bully's. If Tom wants to tell his kid that he will someday be an astronaut so be it. It is not my place, not your place, and not the bully's place to intervene.
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Ebion

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2010, 06:25:44 AM »

If Tom wants to tell his kid that he will someday be an astronaut so be it. It is not my place, not your place, and not the bully's place to intervene.

So you think it's perfectly okay for Tom to tell little Jimmy that he can be an astronaut someday and allow him to crush himself under the weight of what he thinks are parental expectations and a system that encourages punishing failures with a worthless career and job due to poor academic achievements, but it's certainly wrong and distasteful that the local school bully calls him "a stupid-head" and he evaluates his self-worth and realizes that he's not all that special and abandons his dream before he gets hurt worse than a little teasing could ever do?

Look, I'm not saying that kids shouldn't have dreams, but at the end of the day, they're just DREAMS, and the vast majority of the people who make them come true don't do so by blindly believing that they're special, and they certainly weren't the kids who weren't picked on, hazed, or generally straight out told that they're not going to amount to nothing.

Without bullying, hazing, or other kinds of childhood adversity, how would someone as important as a scientist be able to deal with others calling their theory into question? If scientists truly believed that they were unique snowflakes and never dealt with adversity, how would they ever be able to defend or re-evaluate their theories? The same concept applies here, if little Jimmy is bullied, and has to re-evaluate the shattered remains of his self-esteem, he'll realize what his strong and weak points and adjust himself to compensate, as any animal would after facing an adversity. Granted, it might take some time and some tears, but everyone has to deal with adversity in one form or another, or else nobody would ever be able to handle being told that they're wrong, or even being able to handle being told "no".....OH WAIT I SEE WUT AMERICA DID HERE!
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AngryBadger

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2010, 04:17:32 PM »

I'm hoping there just is a lack of mutual understanding what the terms 'bullying' and 'difference'.

From what some people are saying, they think bullying is no more than being called stupid or dumbass all the time.  From my stand point, it's being harassed to think people or a person is out to kill you.  Basically I'm saying.If you haven't been in FEAR OR YOUR LIFE you haven't been bullied.  If you think different that's where the miscommunication is.

From what people have been saying the think making a difference is nothing short than having you name remembered after thousands of years like Cesar or Shakespear or Homer.  I'm sure no one here is under the dulsions that the world would fall apart without there existence, but I think the fact that a human interacts with other humans and changes something about those humans.

And honestly the thing was CAN make a Difference.  NOT WILL.  The fact that every human breathes, eats and poops means they instantly change the environment around them and that is making a difference.
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Octale

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2010, 08:20:46 PM »

Quote
Basically I'm saying.If you haven't been in FEAR OR YOUR LIFE you haven't been bullied.  If you think different that's where the miscommunication is.
Then I think you need to have a long chat with the people at the rally in the vignette.  Note specifically the kid reciting about another kid that was taunted into committing suicide.  Taunted?  The only thing I could ever taunt people into doing is kicking my ass.  Of course, if Angry Badger's definition of bullying was the one we all agreed on, we wouldn't need anti-bullying rallies, because they would be anti-violence rallies.  We can all agree that violence is bad, but we're not dealing with people who believe only violence is bad.  We're dealing with traffickers in human misery.  The people that made below average acceptable, and mediocre exceptional.  The people that completely disenfranchised the academically exceptional.  Of course, they are the same people that took all the nobility out of being a mechanic, a janitor, a garbage man, a plumber, etc.

So, you're entitled to a good GPA and completely adversity free experience in high school, and a good enough ACT score to get into college, but if you can't cut it there, we'll judge you for the rest of your life for not being able to get it done the first time we put any pressure on you whatsoever, without giving you the tools to handle the pressure in the first place.
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Red Dog Dragon

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2010, 11:14:43 AM »

My take on the rally and the phrase "I am somebody" has more to do with try to encourge someone who's being picked on to stand up for oneself (or if you see someone getting picked on, lend a hand) and don't just take it or allow it to drag you down to the point that you consider suicide because someone called you a name.

Not that I think a rally would magically fix all life's ills, but I don't disagree with the message and I think it works along with Oct's mindset.   People are assholes, learn how to deal with them and move on, don't give up and just sit in a dark room wearing makeup and write bad poetry.

I got picked on all the time in school though I wasn't bullied physically.  I can only think of one time when someone challanged me physically in high school (first day of freshmen year even.)  I didn't back down, almost got in a fist fight right in the classroom before the teachers broke it up and the kid never bothered me again.
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