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Author Topic: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here  (Read 7161 times)

AngryBadger

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2010, 09:11:26 AM »

I think we got off on a tangent on whether bullying is wrong or tolerable.

The rally is a stupid idea that makes people feel better for a while, of course, that goes for any rally.

But I do disagree with Octale when he said the statement "I am someone, and I can change the world." is crap.  I believe if you can make anyone feel good for even a split second you change the world for the positive, and the reverse is true.  You never know who the next Hitler or Napoleon or Churchhill will be.

Name for me one thing you've done that's actually made the world a better place.  33 years on this planet, and I can honestly say, OnHVW included, that I've done a grand total of nothing to make the world a better place.  The point is you don't have to have delusions of grandeur about saving the world or being somebody to live a perfectly happy, normal, moral life.  Deconstructing the Snowflake Myth is a required first step to saving the future, as far as I am concerned.

If you think you're not judged or criticized in your adult life, you're naive.  Most adults have the common courtesy to do it under their breath or do it when you're not around.  Why sugar coat the formative years and paint a picture of a world that is so obviously a lie, just to protect people you are perfectly comfortable giving the power they have away to anyone that will take it.

Well, I help a friend with her costume, and she won the costume contest.  That may not be like me starting World War 3 or something, but I see it I effected events even in a minor way.  However, I guess you think you have to change the world in a significant way to effect history and save or destroy millions to change the world in your mind.  I see it as a point of view and what is changing the world.  It's more like the butterfly making a hurricane effect.

I personally think everyone is miserable life.  When you honestly is there nothing you want you can't have, if so you are not happy.
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Vaulisel

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2010, 10:25:39 AM »

Name for me one thing you've done that's actually made the world a better place.  33 years on this planet, and I can honestly say, OnHVW included, that I've done a grand total of nothing to make the world a better place.  The point is you don't have to have delusions of grandeur about saving the world or being somebody to live a perfectly happy, normal, moral life.  Deconstructing the Snowflake Myth is a required first step to saving the future, as far as I am concerned.
Whether anything makes the world a better place can be debatable. There are plenty of people who believe the world will be a better place if humanity were utterly wiped out tomorrow, but I really don't appreciate their sentiment that I'd be better off dead.

You know for a fact that OnHVW has made a difference in peoples' lives; you've read out letters on air to that very effect. The world that they saw was brighter for a day than it otherwise would have been without it. Not all of us feel we are so prone to delusions of grandeur that we need a nihilistic viewpoint to keep ourselves psychologically afloat.

I'm currently working on some research regarding antibiotics. I don't know how it will all pan out, and I certainly don't expect to uncover anything like the next penicillin. But the work I do might make a difference, it might make someone healthier and maybe even one day lead to saving a life. It might not. But I don't feel like my time is wasted trying.

In a big way I agree with you. The guy who discovered penicillin brought about the saving of countless lives. He certainly wasn't born to do it; he did it through hard work (and a moderate dose of serendipity, as with most medical discoveries). He wasn't born with a special organ that let him do great things while others wallowed in obscurity. Giving people a puffed up opinion of their worth while they are young isn't going to foster a spirit of striving to be better.

Then again, your rhetoric sounds like you prefer to advocate for a Darwinistic system that produces masses of people who have been so ground down by the system that they have no hope to ever be anything more than drones in a sociological machine, and so should quit trying before they waste their time, with a cream of spoiled brats who bully their way to whatever they want floating on top. (Epic strawman, I know; noone waste their time pointing it out.)

The "unique snowflake" is a perversion of what the original "you are special" style message was originally intended to convey. The whole point of the message was not to tell people that they somehow provide a service of unique and great import to the world by existing, but to tell them that the status quo is not god; just as you aren't born to be great, you aren't born completely without hope that you can do something with your life. There's no need to let life stagnate just because you won't shatter continents with your footsteps or give life to the dying with each breath. I think it's worthwhile to do my best at what I do and to give a damn about it.

I agree that the Snowflake Myth needs to go. But I don't think that the world needs a myth of hopelessness and defeatism to replace it. It's okay to lead a normal life, just as I and everyone I know probably will. But the fact that you might never make a difference isn't a good enough reason not to do your best at whatever you can do, not in my book. I keep working at what I do not because I think I am destined to make a difference but because I think it is worthwhile to try.
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AngryBadger

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2010, 02:53:40 PM »

I have been thinking and the first thing we need to do is know what "Bullying" is.  I've been called names.  I have been threaten.  I've been physically irritated (Wedgies, thumping on the ear, kick in the back of the chair ect.)  I've been beaten up.  Technically all this goes to bullying.

I think teaching kids coping skills is the best way negate name calling.  "Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me," helps many kids.  Other kids need a little more training than that, because words hurt if you can't stop them, so we need to teach the people who can't figure that out on there own.

Threats are becoming more punishable now a days.  In my day in my school, the bully said, "After school, I'm going to beat you to a pulp," I tell the teacher and she says, "I can't do anything about it until you are beaten up, and I'm not going to waste my time watching over your silly little fights."  Most of the times I just ran through the halls to keep from being beaten and got in trouble for it.

Physical irritation rarely got stop when I was at school unless it interrupted the class.

When I was beaten up pretty badly in fifth grade, the police were called.  Seeing this happen at my house the police did nothing.

Bullying created what I am: An Agoraphobe.  I truly believe everyone is out to get me.  I'm in therapy but it's hard cause I don't trust my therapist not to kill me.
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Ebion

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2010, 03:32:22 PM »

I think teaching kids coping skills is the best way negate name calling.  "Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me,"

Actually, it's more like "Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but words mentally scar me forever." in American Society, because god forbid the fat kid gets called fat, the preppy kid gets called a spoiled brat, or the behavioral issue kids get called punks, because that could possibly harm them mentally, think of the children! D:

Personally I agree with Vaulisel on a lot of what he said, but realistically I can't help but feel as if that's a far to optimistic view on the issue, especially since Darwanistic behavoirs can be observed, but the "Your Special" or the original "snowflake" myth can't be observed, especially not when it's a natural occurring thing to be judgmental, being that the people that treat you like crap are "bad" people, and therefor couldn't possibly be special, unique, or anything else considering that "Special" has been bastardized to mean "The perfect little angel who can never do wrong even when they do."
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Pravda

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2010, 07:43:35 PM »

Go Vaulisel! Go Badger! The most sane people on this thread  ;)

Here is a little conversation, completely without snowflakes, between Q&A

Q: Why do bullies bully?
A: To feel good about themsef!
Q: What is wrong with school trying to make children feel good about themselves?
A: Nothing.
Q: Then why do bullies bully to feel good about themself?
A: Because school makes them feel terrible.
Q: So you are defending the bully's?
A: No, but you will find that it's not the "white-an-nerdy" who do the bullying. (I am referring to Weird Al not a race debate) Bully's are those that score lowest in their classes. Same thing at work. It's people who feel small that belittle others. Because we all need to feel good about ourselves. One way or another.

Q: How does school make them feel terrible?
A: Because school only consists of one type of learning and punishes creativity.
Q: Surely school approves of creativity?
A: School is as far from creativity as can be. E.g. in math you will learn that 1+1 =2. A more creative solution would be to say that 1+1 = 11. Your math teacher is not going to approve.
Q: That's ridiculous, one plus one is two!
A: This is part of the problem, school only teaches subjects where there is a set answer. Even in subjects such as literature there is a "right way" to understand a poem and and if you give this as your answer you will get a good score - if you think the poem is about something else, you clearly "haven't understood" said poem.

Q: Well, what is this "one type of learning" you talk about, school teaches a lot of subjects.
A: Yes, and all the subjects are treated in the same manner. You acquire knowledge by reading a text, which you will have to memorize. E.g. understanding history is not as important as remembering dates and lists of names.
Q: OK smart-ass, how would you do it!
A: I don't know. But I do know there are different ways of learning and different types of knowledge. Learning to ride a bike is not something you can get from a book, yet you can learn the knowledge to do it. This is a different type of knowledge not recognized as such, so we categorize as "a skill". School only recognizes the mnemonic way of learning, so if you are potentially good at say, understanding and repairing cars, it won't help your grades.

Q: I think you do not understand the importance of theory, you only come up with "practical" examples.
A: Well, it is a practical world. Theory don't bake bread. We need an education that considers more than one way of learning and more than one type of knowledge. And we need to appreciate both theory and practice. "The best of both worlds."
Q: Yea, you have a good theory there but it's not practical.
A: I know what you mean, in order to make a difference we need to change how people think about learning, knowledge and values.
Q: Values? You lost me there.
A: Yes values. Theory is perceived as having more worth than practice, even by those who do the "practice bit".

Q: You never answered my question about why school makes bully's feel terrible.
A: Well, its because school only teaches one way of learning.
Q You're just repeating yourself.
A: Ha-ha - so are you.
Q: He-he - yes - what do you think about VtW?.
A: They're making a difference.
Q: - as in....
A: The world is a better place with VtW in it :D
Q: True....  Btw - what do you mean "we" have to make a change?
A: Well it has to start by thinking about it.
Q: Ha! That's theory.
A: Ye. Happy now?
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AngryBadger

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2010, 09:07:35 PM »

"I am someone, and I can change the world."

I made a mistake and misremembered the statement.  The Statement is "I am somebody, and I can make a Difference."

Making a difference doesn't even come close to changing the world.  If you can make a depressed person laugh you made a difference.  Same if you make a happy person feel like crap.  Difference can mean slight change in a slight way.  The way Octale acted I thought it was change the world.  Anyone can make a difference in one person life.  You can make a difference in your own life.

Basically, to make a difference is to change something that left alone wouldn't happen.  Like Totalbiscuit kind encourage me to play WoW, and Octale encourage me to quit.  They both made a difference in my life cause if I never heard the podcast I'd never played WoW.
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AngryBadger

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2010, 09:13:07 PM »

Go Vaulisel! Go Badger! The most sane people on this thread  ;)

I find this funny since my first post starts out that I'm mentally ill lol
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Octale

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2010, 12:29:40 AM »

Quote
Q: What is wrong with school trying to make children feel good about themselves?
A: Nothing.
False assumption

As for the rest, blame a system that rewards only performance on standardized tests, pays roughly 50% of private industry (in part because the pay is derived from property tax dollars), and has the concept of tenure where effort on the part of the instructor is required only until tenure is acquired, at which point an instructor can coast for the rest of his/her career, unless the above mentioned standardized test score start to dip.

None of this has anything to do with the gaggle of people willing to just throw away the power they have as an individual to people who have no right to claim it.  You choose to throw that power away, just as you choose to let a subset 4 years of your life ruin the entirety of the next 60 of years of your life.

I'm judged every day.  First, for being heavy in the "second fittest city in America".  Second, because I'm 33 and single with no kids.  Third, because I do a 2 hour internet radio show about video games and, oh by the way, I'm a founding partner of an internet radio station.  I could go on.  Yes, it would be infinitely easier to just give away the power I have as an individual to the people judging me.  I will never give them the satisfaction of beating me...ever.
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Eid

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2010, 12:49:02 AM »

@Pravda, that conversation sounded worthy of Zaltu :)

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Zerodaimaru

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2010, 07:40:10 AM »

My high-school life was an absolute hell. I'm no special flower in this fact and yes it was the worse 5 years (should have been 4 but I spent 2 months in hospital/recovery in grade 11 witch caused me to fail a few classes). And you know what? I'm glad it was! Because it taught me how to stand up for myself. How to take scathing remarks and preconceived judgments throw at me by other people about my own self worth and pitch them right in a bin on the curb. It taught me that the only person in the world who could possibly judge me with any kind of meaning that meant anything to me was myself. And I wouldn't trade that feeling of empowerment that has carried on into my adult life for anything in the world. No I'm never going to change the world and in the grand scheme of thing my life will matter very little, but that's okay.

This rally is trying to take away that feeling from these kids. Yes if bullying is discovered it should be dealt with to the fullest extent available. However all this is doing is giving kids false impressions that it will never happen to them again ever and that is wrong. Because after this rally nothing will change, nothing will be better and things will probably be worse for the kids that attended this rally. I remember many a gathering in my elementary school days with the teachers all talking about how bullying was wrong. That was just as effective as this rally is going to be. And what if it did work? what then? It would be the same as taking someone who has lived their entire life in a germ free environment and then tossing them out on the streets on a major city. How long do you think they would last? Without hardship to build up our defense be it biological or social when we are exposed to the "real world" things will go badly.

Just my two cents on this pointless rally

~Zero~
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