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Author Topic: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here  (Read 7164 times)

Octale

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Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« on: August 27, 2010, 10:50:50 PM »

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Ebion

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2010, 01:41:32 AM »

I want to play devils advocate for a moment and say that the only "argument" I've heard that I would buy against hazing and bullying is this:

When there is hazing going on in a Team, Club, or "Exclusive" school, it goes on because as a team, you want to pick apart the new guy to be sure that he'll fit into your group and you can trust him in a competitive enviornment. In non-exclusive environments like school, the only difference from the exclusive enviornment is that the child being bullied had no choice but to be in the enviornment in the first place, because school is obviously mandatory, and the situation will be the same regardless of what school the child goes too, or even worse if the child is put in a private school. Therefor, it could be detrimental to the child that they are being "forced" into an enviornment where they are being mentally or physically attacked. These children are obviously going to either stand up for themselves physically, gain the strength and the patience to get past the bullying, or break down and become depressed or suicidal. Honestly, only the ladder cases should be examined and I do believe they should be dealt with on case-by-case basis, rather than having these rallies and trying to "raise awareness" which is really a socially acceptable form of doing nothing, but pretending like you care. At the end of the day, some people just aren't mentally prepared for society, and those people should be held in school for longer or else given mental help to work through their issues.

Look, even in trying to play devils advocate my sense of outrage is just not going to let me continue to type this crap. I was bullied when I was in Middle School and High School, but I overcame that, came to blows with a few people, and quite frankly I think that overall I'm as strong as I am BECAUSE I've faced so much adversity in my life. Bullying is going to happen, and whether you want to admit it or not, overcoming a bully or being overcame as a bully is an essential part of learning what is and is not socially exceptable in an enviornment of your peers, and personally, I think there is no single better tool for teaching that than Elementry School playgrounds, Middle School Gym locker rooms or lunch rooms, or High School Hallways.
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AngryBadger

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2010, 03:33:43 PM »

I am mentally ill individual (I'm sure that doesn't surprise many).   Because I was genetically unable to cope with the cruel world I have to hide from it basically.  While most people can take bullying and be stronger from it, few can't.  The saying what doesn't kill me makes me stronger well that's true but bullying has killed people.  Sometimes the mentally ill person takes a gun and kills others instead; some blame the music, some the parents, some the bullying, some the government.  However what is needed is screening to find out who can take the pain and who can't.  I'm not sure what we can do about the ones who can't other than put them in an asylum and lock them up and take care of them til they die, or at the very least, medicate them properly and have group concling or something; it works for me.

When I was bullied as a kid I burst into tears until middle school when I just attack them.  If I knew how to shoot and had a gun, there woulda been a shooting at my school.  I didn't comment suicide cause I hated the bullies so much I wouldn't give the satisfaction of killing me.  As a child, I had no innocents.  Moreover, today I still can't get over the bullying I had in school, and no amount of therapy or ignorant people saying "get over it" will make it go away.

I don't believe bullying to the point of driving someone to suicide shouldn't be punished because it will just make suicide more sweet.

One last tidbit of info for you that my conslor told me. Mental Illness has to have 2 things to some up a genetic marker and a trigger  School bullying is often the trigger.  If we can take away the instinct to break people down, we would stop a lot of mental illness, but it's cheaper, easier to treat the symptom -- the mentally ill-- and not the problem.  

edit: Reread it and found a mistake.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 02:28:01 PM by AngryBadger »
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Daz

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2010, 12:48:23 PM »

The writing is on the wall. Kids get verbally bullied every day for whatever reason, cut themselves, end up in hospital, scarred for life. Your team analogy is irrelevant because public elementary/high schools are not teams. The class is 30 something kids and one teacher giving them all the same information. The class isn't a football team and you can't pick and chose the best players. The law mandates every kid goes to school and they will go there no matter how good/bad they are at it until they reach the age of 16. Your child gets nothing positive from being called ugly or a fagg*t on a daily basis. Why not stamp it out? Why not punish children who verbally mock others? Why not make a safe learning environment where your young children will be respected by their peers? There is no reason to allow this profanity or disrespect in public schools, especially elementary schools.

Your main point is that the kids will become stronger against adversity if they are bullied, but why should they be expected to tolerate this to begin with? Detention, suspension, expulsion, beating over the head with a ruler, I do not care how you punish it just do something about it instead of expecting the kids to cope with it. How can our kids "be a kid" and enjoy the innocence of it if they have to deal with this treatment every single day?
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GoHF

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2010, 06:36:53 PM »

Bullying is a childish behavior, and it's one way of learning about hierarchies, the self and the others, and boundaries. If the lesson isn't being learned, then it becomes a problem. Just like putting your fingers on the electric socket, if you do it once and learn that's kinda ok, if you keep doing it, then there's a problem.

Hazing is the tamer adult version of bullying. As a rite of passage, I have little respect for it. The psychological need to humiliate, belittle or force upon others a sense of hierarchical superiority is a flaw on the part of the hazers, an inability to connect with others normally and an inability to achieve whatever they want to achieve through hazing by more civilized means. In the case of hazing in a professional setting, where each individual is being paid individually to perform a task as a team, in a team they neither own nor assembled, it is that much more pitiful. If as a grown man and a professional, you cannot work with another professional before seeing how they react to being singled out by the group for humiliation or belittling, then you've probably missed the point of being both a grown man and a professional.

edit: Oh, and yes, people who waste their time waxing poetic in rallies or demonstrations are doing just that, wasting their time. They could probably achieve the same by eating icecream and reading a joke from the daily newspaper.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 06:38:44 PM by GoHF »
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Sekani

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2010, 11:23:16 PM »

I got picked on a lot when I was a kid. I didn't like it, but eventually I developed ways of handling it. I seriously believe that I'm a better person now because of that experience. This is all part of being a kid.

Bullying tends to imply something more severe than teasing, usually physical harassment. I agree that this is something that does need to be taken care of by supervisory figures, but it wouldn't hurt our kids to develop ways of coping with this as well. I had the physique of a celery stick in high school, so I'm glad I learned how to talk my way out of a few altercations.

I think that it's more empowering and better for self-esteem if we teach our children ways of solving their own problems that don't always involve telling mommy or daddy or the principal. Otherwise you end up with grown men who throw temper tantrums as their way of dealing with adversity.

Feriluce

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2010, 11:47:08 PM »

And how exactly is mental violence so different from physical violence?
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Vaulisel

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2010, 02:52:22 AM »

I was bullied for years in high school, by a variety of methods, from name calling, to theft, to physical violence. Not by a group of bullies, but by what amounted to virtually everyone in the school; I was the consensus target. And the teachers were guilty of participating in the name calling too, I suppose in order to build some kind of twisted rapport with the bullies. Every day of school was a suffocating and depressing experience, and there was nothing to be done about it. I never even understood why I was being picked on, it just started one day and carried on for years.

What do you suppose it "taught" me? How did it make me "stronger"? It was the single most unpleasant span of years in my life, with no bright patches to speak of. What I "learned" was the only way to attain peace in school was to be paranoid that literally everyone was out to get me (which they were, whenever it was convenient) and that the only way to ward them off when caught was to become a complete psychopath. By the time I had risen toward the senior end of school, most of the significantly larger bullies had left school, and the rest had come to fear being on my bad side, because one day their bravado would come at a bad time and bite them in the ass.

In what world is the lesson that paranoia and psychopathic behaviour is the best way a useful life lesson? It was only when I went to university that I gradually began to realise that most people don't give a shit about my existence, and this was a relief, because I wasn't some form of twisted entertainment for the masses anymore. I don't feel I gained anything but grief and pain from my time being bullied. I am an emotionally weaker and more socially damaged person than I otherwise would have been as a result. Not to mention that if bullying wasn't considered to be a socially acceptable pastime in my school there would have been fewer limps and concussions amongst those bullies who pushed me too far.

Bullying is bonding for bullies, not victims. I was a sacrifice to the mob, nothing more.

That said, I will happily spit on anyone who says anything about raising awareness. If the teachers were ignorant of the bullying they wouldn't have been joining in the name-calling. The problem is no one gives a shit. Bullying is already considered a natural part of school life, and people like me are the acceptable losses who never had an opportunity to enjoy school. No one thinks that it is wrong for a few to suffer for the enjoyment of the rest. There is no awareness problem here. The problem is a moral failure of modern society which thinks that rallies about awareness is sufficient to justify looking the other way the rest of the time, while they raise their children to believe that bullying is okay.
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AngryBadger

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2010, 07:42:23 AM »

I think we got off on a tangent on whether bullying is wrong or tolerable.

The rally is a stupid idea that makes people feel better for a while, of course, that goes for any rally.

But I do disagree with Octale when he said the statement "I am someone, and I can change the world." is crap.  I believe if you can make anyone feel good for even a split second you change the world for the positive, and the reverse is true.  You never know who the next Hitler or Napoleon or Churchhill will be.
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Octale

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Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2010, 08:39:30 AM »

I think we got off on a tangent on whether bullying is wrong or tolerable.

The rally is a stupid idea that makes people feel better for a while, of course, that goes for any rally.

But I do disagree with Octale when he said the statement "I am someone, and I can change the world." is crap.  I believe if you can make anyone feel good for even a split second you change the world for the positive, and the reverse is true.  You never know who the next Hitler or Napoleon or Churchhill will be.

Name for me one thing you've done that's actually made the world a better place.  33 years on this planet, and I can honestly say, OnHVW included, that I've done a grand total of nothing to make the world a better place.  The point is you don't have to have delusions of grandeur about saving the world or being somebody to live a perfectly happy, normal, moral life.  Deconstructing the Snowflake Myth is a required first step to saving the future, as far as I am concerned.

If you think you're not judged or criticized in your adult life, you're naive.  Most adults have the common courtesy to do it under their breath or do it when you're not around.  Why sugar coat the formative years and paint a picture of a world that is so obviously a lie, just to protect people you are perfectly comfortable giving the power they have away to anyone that will take it.
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