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Author Topic: Autism  (Read 4971 times)

TheWanderingBard

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Re: Autism
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2010, 10:31:02 PM »

(Not autistic, but have several autistic/Asperger's friends and my mother works as an aide for autistic children in schools).

I approve of autism testing as an idea, because A) it stops people from using autism-spectrum disorders as an excuse for the bad behaviour of non-autistic children (which in my experience contributes much to the general perception of autism sufferers as "crazy" or "spazzers") and B) it helps those actually living with a disorder to get the treatment and special assistance they need to get ahead in school and life. Now, the accuracy and validity of this test (and medical testing in general) is not one I feel qualified to argue on; nevertheless my first reaction is that this is a good first step towards a conclusive test, if nothing else.
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Argorash

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Re: Autism
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2010, 11:02:40 AM »

I don't want to get too involved in this topic as my oppinion on it is heated to say the least so I'll keep it short.
Let me just say the following: the "treatment" for mild to medium autistic spectrum cases is integration, however by adding a label to the person their treatment is impeded and they are basicly excluded from the community of "neurotypicals" while quacks spend time trying to "cure" them of their "disability" through pseudoscientific untested treatments such as breathing exersises, humming circles and "quiet time"(The subject is locked in a darkened room for at least an hour).
The only time a test for autism would be required would be when its serious enough for the autistic to cause themself or others harm through their disability, in which case our current treatment methods are more then enough.

To re-itterate: something resolved by intergration does not need to be diagnosed, in any mild case it needs to be ignored as a diagnoses is more damaging then any help it can provide, this isn't in a hypothetical future its right now today happening to real people.

I find it truely shocking that people in this thread are beating on people for citing enyclopedia dramatica, wikipedia or a movie as a reference but openly accept something published by the daily mail as a potentially reliable source.
I realise in saying this i'm commiting a Poisoning the well logical fallacy but the daily mail has been notoriously bad at reporting science news throughout the last 10 years.
I'd like to direct you all to http://kill-or-cure.heroku.com/ for now as a source of my daily mail venom. its website documenting everything that the daily mail have reported as causing and curing cancer.
It should be noted that the majority of the "scientists" they quote are underqualified university students who've had their papers taken without their permission and warped to fit the Mail's agenda.

I guess the first line of this post proved itself wrong after i was finished with my rambling so i will follow this post up later, most likely having found out that the whole article is another ignorent scam perpetrated by a journalist with no knowledge of the science behind it, we don't even know if autism is genetic or enviromental at this stage.
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Argorash

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Re: Autism
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2010, 11:28:52 AM »

And here we have it: http://actionforautism.co.uk/2010/06/13/breakthrough-in-autism-research-again/

The short version,
The quote they are basing this off is as follows:
Quote
A simple test that could revolutionise the diagnosis of autism could be available within just three years.
The kit would use a few drops of blood to help doctors decide if a child has the devastating condition, speeding up diagnosis and allowing life-altering treatment to start earlier.
The test, which Oxford University researchers believe could be in NHS clinics by 2013, would capitalise on the results of a landmark genetic study into the root causes of autism.
The daily mail where informed that we will be studying the genetic causes of autism by 2013 and they span it into a "autism test" that will be available by 2013. With vague hints at "life altering treatments" which do not exist whilst symaltaniously damning those who are already diagnosed as having a "devastating condition".
[rant]
Another excelent job by the worst newspaper in all of Britian! Thank you kindly for making life more difficult for those with the condition and perpetuating the false hope that has been heaped on parents over the years.
[/rant]
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Vaulisel

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Re: Autism
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2010, 11:33:35 AM »

I would like to indicate for the nth time in this thread that my first post indicates via mathematical example the deceptive qualities of the article. And regardless of how miserable the Daily Mail may be as a journalistic edifice, I utterly and categorically reject Encyclopaedia Dramatica as being worth any more than something I would scrape off my shoe as a source for anything, other than an example of what anonymity does to the craven and cowardly.

Furthermore, you seem to be another person who believes that "diagnosis" is synonymous with "condemnation" and that ignorance is a superior strategy for medical progress.

I completely fail to understand why you think that autism can have a spectrum but diagnosis techniques cannot detect them.

I fail to comprehend why you think that being informed about the nature and severity of a condition is the same as being incapable of deciding whether or not treatment is necessary.

I utterly do not get why you think that since jumping the gun and using such a ridiculously underdeveloped and binary test means that techniques to assess a recognized mental condition should never be developed.

And coming in here and accusing me of "beating on people" for using reasoning that goes "I saw this happen in a movie so it will totally happen IRL" is completely unreasonable. If I was "beating" on someone, GoheX would step in; I know he was watching closely.

Saying that the only flaw in your argument is a poisoning the well fallacy is fairly generous. Try reading the posts again and find someone saying that the Daily mail is reliable science journalism, I dare you. My one comment about reading the article was to address an accusation that it was promoting enforcing treatment irrespective of the depth of the condition.

 We've discussing the core concept of early diagnosis and the benefits and pitfalls of doing so, and I'd appreciate if you'd attack arguments and not waste everyone's time trying to undermine the people making them.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 11:39:12 AM by Vaulisel »
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Vandal

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Re: Autism
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2010, 12:08:08 PM »


I fail to comprehend why you think that being informed about the nature and severity of a condition is the same as being incapable of deciding whether or not treatment is necessary.

I utterly do not get why you think that since jumping the gun and using such a ridiculously underdeveloped and binary test means that techniques to assess a recognized mental condition should never be developed.



And Vaulisel strikes! I have not had much interest to post on this thread, but I have to support you here Vaus. Just because it's under developed doesnt' in turn lead to no creation of a test. I personally think there needs to be one. It saves family pain and they can properly prepare for the future.
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Argorash

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Re: Autism
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2010, 12:10:15 PM »

Allow me to break this down.
I would like to indicate for the nth time in this thread that my first post indicates via mathematical example the deceptive qualities of the article. And regardless of how miserable the Daily Mail may be as a journalistic edifice, I utterly and categorically reject Encyclopaedia Dramatica as being worth any more than something I would scrape off my shoe as a source for anything, other than an example of what anonymity does to the craven and cowardly.
My assertion is that the daily mail is worth less then something I would scrape off my shoe, in almost all cases the truth is almost the opposite of what they perpetuate.


Quote
Furthermore, you seem to be another person who believes that "diagnosis" is synonymous with "condemnation" and that ignorance is a superior strategy for medical progress.



I fail to comprehend why you think that being informed about the nature and severity of a condition is the same as being incapable of deciding whether or not treatment is necessary.
The answer to all of the above is the same thing: The treatment is integration.
Identifying the condition slows down integration. I accept that this should not happen but non-the-less it does happen, this is brought on by overzealous treatment and over-concerned parents, both of which are natural by-products of a monetized medical industry.
The only time when the patient even needs to be made aware of this condition is when they are deemed to be a risk to themselves or society because of it, and that is so that integration can be slowed down.
Quote
I completely fail to understand why you think that autism can have a spectrum but diagnosis techniques cannot detect them.
This is not something that I think, you have applied this bigoted opinion to my to undermine my argument.
(straw man)
Quote
I utterly do not get why you think that since jumping the gun and using such a ridiculously underdeveloped and binary test means that techniques to assess a recognized mental condition should never be developed.
As I stated, current methods for assessing the condition (face to face interaction with the patient) are either appropriate or overzealous in their diagnoses, blood tests would be a step in the wrong direction because autism is gauged not by genetic markers but by ability to interact with other people, its not even conclusively proven to be a genetic disability.

Please also take note that there is no binary test it was a daily mail lie, there is only a research project to investigate the potential of autism being a genetic "defect" that will begin in 3 years.

Quote
And coming in here and accusing me of "beating on people" for using reasoning that goes "I saw this happen in a movie so it will totally happen IRL" is completely unreasonable. If I was "beating" on someone, GoheX would step in; I know he was watching closely.
You are dismissing them offhand without considering the source, the wording I used was perhaps a bit harsh but even in this post you are grossly misquoting him to aid your argument. (straw man)

Quote
Saying that the only flaw in your argument is a poisoning the well fallacy is fairly generous. Try reading the posts again and find someone saying that the Daily mail is reliable, I dare you. We've discussing the core concept of early diagnosis and the benefits and pitfalls of doing so, and I'd appreciate if you'd attack arguments and not waste everyone's time trying to undermine the people making them.
Another straw man, I never claimed that was the only Flaw in my argument, I have no delusions of perfection.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 12:22:01 PM by Argorash »
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Vaulisel

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Re: Autism
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2010, 12:35:28 PM »

Allow me to break this down.
My assertion is that the daily mail is worth less then something I would scrape off my shoe, in almost all cases the true is almost the opposite of what they perpetuate.
And in turn this renders anything you say about my criticism of sources irrelevant.


Quote
The answer to all of the above is the same thing: The treatment is integration.
Identifying the condition slows down integration. I accept that this should not happen but non-the-less it does happen, this is brought on by overzealous treatment and over-concerned parents, both of which are natural by-products of a monetized medical industry.
The only time when the patient even needs to be made aware of this condition is when they are deemed to be a risk to themselves or society because of it, and that is so that integration can be slowed down.
If such a rapid test as the article claims is being developed did exist, how would it slow down integration? The whole point of their claims is that the test would be fast enough to reduce such delays.
Overzealous treatment and overconcerned parents are natural byproducts of a monetised medical industry capitalising on a critical lack of understanding regarding the condition to scare people into treatment. Something which can potentially be addressed by the research the article misrepresents. People generally don't go to quacks to address a broken arm, because they know exactly what it is and what it represents, and it is diagnosable with reasonable immediacy.
Quote
As I stated, current methods for assessing the condition (face to face interaction with the patient) are either appropriate or overzealous in their diagnoses, blood tests would be a step in the wrong direction because autism is gauged not by genetic markers but by ability to interact with other people, its not even conclusively proven to be a genetic disability.
Blood tests are not for specific personal diagnoses in any case, the whole point is for high-speed screening to locate those who are at risk. If there was a blood test available, I think it would be perfectly reasonable for parents with a family history of debilitating forms of autism to get their child checked, if a genetic source was prevailing wisdom for the cause of the condition at the time.
Regardless, it's not a scientist's job to give up on an avenue of inquiry just because it hasn't yet borne conclusive fruit.
Quote
Please also take note that there is no binary test it was a daily mail lie, there is only a research project to investigate the potential of autism being a genetic "defect" that will begin in 3 years.
Irrelevant, since you argue that a test would be bad even if the article was wholly accurate in this regard.

Quote
You are dismissing them offhand without considering the source, the wording I used was perhaps a bit harsh but even in this post you are grossly misquoting him to aid your argument.
Both encyclopaedia dramatica and the movie in question are self-declared works of fiction. This hardly makes them reliable sources. I was deliberately invoking a straw man fallacy for the effect of demonstrating that using a work of fiction as a source is innately silly. But I realise it is a poor thing to do, so I will say guilty as charged.

Quote
Another straw man, I never claimed that was the only Flaw in my argument, I have no delusions of perfection.
Guilty as charged. I was feeling a bit wound up at this point, as I'm sure was abundantly obvious.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 01:01:07 PM by Vaulisel »
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Argorash

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Re: Autism
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2010, 01:45:48 PM »

My point integration is this:
The best way to achieve it is to ignore the situation and not make it into a problem.

The test would give someone a "red flag" as being autistic but not show if they would actually encounter any issues in life. The reason that autism isn't discovered before the age of reason is that its symptoms only truly effect people who are able to reason. To label someone as autistic prior to this age can only be damaging and could lead to segregation and exacerbate the communication problems that will be encountered later in life.

The only way to properly diagnose and assess something like autism with such a wide range of displayed symptoms is to see a specialist and get assessed, and we are capable of doing this already.

Honestly, I don't think such a test can or should ever exist at least in a [yes] [no] form.

I feel the majority of my wrath has been misdirected towards you and I apologise for this, you cannot understand how much I hate the Daily Mail.
Expect another post on their site this week: "Autism caused by immigrants"
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Vaulisel

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Re: Autism
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2010, 02:09:23 PM »

My point of view is that of a scientist, for whom ignorance is almost anathema. I have spent six years of my life studying drug development and mass production, with cognitive psychology on the side, and this has perhaps given me an overly clinical point of view on diagnosis and treatment.

My point of view stems from the fact that diagnosis and treatment are traditionally all but inextricably entwined, such that to deny diagnosis technology development is to deny treatment development, and much of my views on medical research are influenced by this.

I have done a reasonable amount of study and research in genetics, and I am here to tell you that while you hate the idea of a [yes]/[no] test, such a test is physically impossible for autism in any case. Every human being is utterly riddled with genetic mutations, mistakes and defects. Any test is going to be based on a statistical argument and as such would never, ever be used on its own to say "Yes, this person has it" or "No, this person does not have it." The suspected genetic point of origin for autism is on a spectrum in and of itself, elements of which will be present in different levels across different people and expressed at different levels amongst each level of presence. But a yes/no test is so much more sensationalist, no? Of course the media wants you to think that's what is in the works.

My flatmate has a cousin diagnosed with (extremely severe) autism. He can only speak in inarticulate noises, and has little ability to comprehend the world or the effect his actions have on it (as far as anyone can tell). To me, developing the ability to diagnose the condition is the first step on the way to finding a way to rectify it, and help people like him.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 02:11:16 PM by Vaulisel »
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