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Author Topic: Autism  (Read 4986 times)

Vaulisel

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Re: Autism
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2010, 08:40:00 AM »

your right I am not the best equipped to argue this, and I cant argue that well. I know when Im mostly beat, However there are some people who have major problems with the who area: " men with Autism more likely to rape women and girls," linking it with a flu vaccine causing many parents not to give their children the vaccine.

So I shall back out and admit I cant not argue it against a skilled debater

NunLeftAlive
I understand what you are trying to say, believe it or not, but think of it like this.

Today, there is no reliable and prompt method to assess autism etc early in life, gauge its severity and treat as necessary. In today's world, you would then see the media trying to scare people with  "Men with Autism more likely to rape women and girls".

Imagine a hypothetical future world, where children with autism are identified and the severity gauged very early in life, and the appropriate level of treatment is begun immediately. Then the vast majority of them go unnoticed, leading normal, productive lives. Autism will become something which is identified and treated where necessary, like short sightedness, or poor hearing where furthermore there are a range of treatment options of all kinds. Noone thinks worse of those people. In such a future, it would be a lot harder to crank up that scare factor, and the headlines would only sound like: "Men with uncorrected vision more likely to kill people in car accidents".

People who link flu vaccines to autism are deranged. That would imply anyone who ever got the flu was a source of derelict genes causing autism. And the flu has been around for a very, very long time.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 08:47:32 AM by Vaulisel »
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Nunleft

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Re: Autism
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2010, 08:54:24 AM »

Imagine a hypothetical future world, where children with autism are identified and the severity gauged very early in life, and the appropriate level of treatment is begun immediately. Then the vast majority of them go unnoticed, leading normal, productive lives. Autism will become something which is identified and treated where necessary, like short sightedness, or poor hearing where furthermore there are a range of treatment options of all kinds. Noone thinks worse of those people.

I would like to see too, but with various factors my cynical mind doubts that will happen by the time the test is perfected. Take the White Australia Policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia) that lasted until 1975!!! 35 years on there still is prejudice in society, though times have changed a fault can still smear a person. Read the encyclopaedia dramtica article on Autism, this confirms my belief that it wont happen soon. going back to the WAP Pauline Hanson wanted a similar policy reintroduced in 2007. She and her racist ass left for England this year. Can I see that Future? Yes. Is it likely no.

In such a future, it would be a lot harder to crank up that scare factor, and the headlines would only sound like: "Men with uncorrected vision more likely to kill people in car accidents".

The Media lives of sensationalisation, so we'll get alot of that before this is over.

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Vaulisel

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Re: Autism
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2010, 09:06:55 AM »

I would like to see too, but with various factors my cynical mind doubts that will happen by the time the test is perfected. Take the White Australia Policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia) that lasted until 1975!!! 35 years on there still is prejudice in society, though times have changed a fault can still smear a person. Read the encyclopaedia dramtica article on Autism, this confirms my belief that it wont happen soon. going back to the WAP Pauline Hanson wanted a similar policy reintroduced in 2007. She and her racist ass left for England this year. Can I see that Future? Yes. Is it likely no.
If you read my first reply, I use a mathematical example to demonstrate that this test is even further from ready than they make it sound, using their best estimate of accuracy. It'll be another two decades before this hits common use, unless there is a major paradigm shift in the way genetic data is analysed.

Also, citing anything in encyclopaedia dramatica is no better than your earlier "There was this one movie". They are self styled internet hate machines. There's noone they don't want to oppress and hate on. Including each other. Autistics are not special in that regard.

I'm familiar with the racial thing too. Have you heard of the policy in the 1960s promoting "a malaysian malaysia"? My mother was Chinese living in Malaysia at the time. She fled the country after her neighbours were murdered for being Chinese.

The Media lives of sensationalisation, so we'll get alot of that before this is over.
No arguments there. But they usually only attack a single target for a decade or so, before finding the new big terror of society. So many people these days have at least one autistic acquaintance (I have known several) that they take that stuff with a pinch of salt anyway.
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Nunleft

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Re: Autism
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2010, 09:18:11 AM »

Encyclopaedia Dramatica isn't a reliable source true, however it does voice the opinions of a small vocal group. There is a Anti-AutismCure movement who can be as vocal is the wackos. In my view Autism-hate is like racism, it will always be there but it will be cast out before it get MUCH air-time...then it gets blown up and people apologise for racist/anti-autistic remarks.

Man us two have filled this thread up with our back and forth XD.

NunFiction
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Ken

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Re: Autism
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2010, 09:19:55 AM »

Man us two have filled this thread up with our back and forth XD.

Indeed! I sat and watched this whole this progress from my mouse hovering over the lock button to me smiling at your agreements.
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Valrick

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Re: Autism
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2010, 09:21:44 AM »

I just had a quick read of the linked article and it seems like a very good thing in my mind.

If this test can help diagnose autism at an age before the behavioural signs are perhaps presenting themselves, that seems like a wholly good thing to me. Reading this thread, I noticed that it was said that 15-20% is not good enough. I think it's important to remember that this test will be used in conjunction with existing diagnosis methods. Anything which flags the possibility of the condition earlier (whether or not is 100%) is a benefit in my eyes.

As for prejudice against those with autism/asperger syndrome and not wanting treatment, I think it's a very difficult topic. In early life, it's going to be the parents choice of the treatment so one has to trust in their judgement and the judgement of the doctors to some degree. Later in life, there's always the option to refuse treatment.

Anyways, there's my poorly informed opinion!  ;)
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Nunleft

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Re: Autism
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2010, 09:23:40 AM »

Man us two have filled this thread up with our back and forth XD.

Indeed! I sat and watched this whole this progress from my mouse hovering over the lock button to me smiling at your agreements.

I find that happens a lot in the IRC and the imaginary kick user button...I have only had 3 instances of that, 1 involved ABBA the other 2 had sexism or minor racism.

Nunthing
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 09:26:33 AM by NunForWorse|CotE »
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Vaulisel

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Re: Autism
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2010, 09:28:31 AM »

I just had a quick read of the linked article and it seems like a very good thing in my mind.

If this test can help diagnose autism at an age before the behavioural signs are perhaps presenting themselves, that seems like a wholly good thing to me. Reading this thread, I noticed that it was said that 15-20% is not good enough. I think it's important to remember that this test will be used in conjunction with existing diagnosis methods. Anything which flags the possibility of the condition earlier (whether or not is 100%) is a benefit in my eyes.

As for prejudice against those with autism/asperger syndrome and not wanting treatment, I think it's a very difficult topic. In early life, it's going to be the parents choice of the treatment so one has to trust in their judgement and the judgement of the doctors to some degree. Later in life, there's always the option to refuse treatment.

Anyways, there's my poorly informed opinion!  ;)
If you read my first reply, I point out that what the 20% doesn't report is the false positive rate, which reduces detection rate dramatically, severely impeding the value of the test. Further, as it is genetically based, the low detection rate underlines that they really don't know enough about what causes autistic-type disorders to place any real confidence in the test.

However I wholly agree with you on the positive value of the test in concept. I think it is better for people to be informed where resources allow them to be and possibly spare their child a lifetime of difficulty, rather than dwell in a risky ignorance to avoid the gaze of a few petty and narrow-minded people who get their jollies from belittling others.

FYI, you guys have destroyed my night's study schedule.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 09:32:57 AM by Vaulisel »
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Valrick

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Re: Autism
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2010, 09:32:59 AM »

If you read my first reply, I point out that what the 20% doesn't report is the false positive rate, which reduces detection rate dramatically, severely impeding the value of the test. Further, as it is genetically based, the low detection rate underlines that they really don't know enough about what causes autistic-type disorders to place any real confidence in the test.

However I wholly agree with you on the positive value of the test in concept. I think it is better for people to be informed where resources allow them to be and possibly spare their child a lifetime of difficulty, rather than dwell in a risky ignorance to avoid the gaze of a few petty and narrow-minded people who get their jollies from belittling others.

Even with the false positive, I still think it's useful as it flags a possible condition earlier than previously possibly. No action should necessarily be taken at the time of diagnosis, but it an early warning sign and says "maybe watch out for this". Further diagnosis and treatment can always take place at a later date.
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Vaulisel

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Re: Autism
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2010, 09:38:49 AM »

The issue is that it probably won't get approved for use if it e.g. spits out 25 false positives for every correct diagnosis.

Mind you, most doctors don't understand the concept of false positives anyway. e.g a doctor who tells a patient the the breast screening methods have a 90% chance of picking up cancer when it is present often actually believes that a positive result means there's a 90% chance the patient has cancer. Once you factor in incidence rates and false positive rates, it drops to roughly 45%.
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