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Archived => Show X => Topic started by: Erathor on August 01, 2011, 06:11:53 PM

Title: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Erathor on August 01, 2011, 06:11:53 PM
So I cracked the amazon preview of the book "According to Hoyle" By Richard L. Frey, starting with the table of contents, 4 pages of games including mostly variants. Why so many variants in the table of contents? We'll get back to that in a second.

The challenge was to pick a game at random, but lets just start at the top:

Poker (page 1):
Quote
Poker is a game for the rugged individualist, and every game reserves the right to make its own laws.
Very interesting that this is on page 1 isn't it? Not to me...

Draw Poker (page 7)
Quote
Draw Poker was the first in a long line of innovations designed to create more betting action. Continued attempts to liven up the game by betting led to eventual adoption of a rule that in certain circumstances the next pot should be a 'jack', meaning the stakes would be jacked up by raising the limit and increasing the amount of the ante."
Liven up the game? Why would I want to do that?

Stud Poker (page 13)
Quote
Stud Poker is a better game for two, three or four players than is Draw Poker, for the there is more action in betting.
Ok, sounds good to me.

Dealer's Choice (page 19)
No quote needed here, it is dealer's choice... Why would you ever want to do such a thing?

Back to variants, it is interesting to me that the phrase "According to Hoyle" refers to following the rules, but the updated version of the book provides so many variants to the rules and even "reserves" the right make your own rules on page 1! Once you choose, you should be committed to them of course, but the choice is the first step. Making a game out of thin air has always been the key and the variant is usually based on the people involved. Why was the shot clock introduced into basketball? Why does mobile gaming need to on the order of minutes?

Me and my kind, we don't look to the 18th century or the arcade generation to define gaming. I believe the Internet gives us most of the QA we need on titles before purchasing. I also trust the people I am playing with to set the goals and rules for the group. Personal preference means that there are more variants out there that you will hate. I'm a doer, not a hater and I am obviously willing to take on challenges.

"When in doubt, don't be douchy"


Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Ebion on August 01, 2011, 08:01:59 PM
The only problem I've ever had with this mindset is when your people join a group whose "rules and goals" differ from your people's own goals. Instead of saying "Ok, I need to either conform or find another group closer to my idea of a good time" they'll just go out of there way to ruin everybody else's experience by trying to steer the group in the direction of the goals they want to achieve or else aren't up to snuff to accomplish the goals the majority want to and cause the group chaos that way.

Look, I have no problem with what you're saying when it's just YOU and YOUR PEOPLE and YOUR FRIENDS, but when it comes to people outside of that circle, especially when they're in the majority for the group, YOUR PEOPLE need to get it together or admit you can't hang and leave so OTHER PEOPLE'S time isn't wasted.
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Erathor on August 01, 2011, 09:25:09 PM
Hey when you drop into the random pool, I actually do believe you are accepting certain rules and goals. Part of that is lowered expectations in return for warm bodies. Random is a die roll towards a variant... when you look at it as a game mechanic and a thereby a "choice" you don't need to get upset about it at all.
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Ebion on August 01, 2011, 10:11:21 PM
I don't buy that. When you drop into the Random pool, your goal SHOULD be to complete whatever the goal is as efficiently as possible so the other X number of people in the same pool don't have there time wasted. If you make a "choice" to be out of position and aggro extra mobs that wipe the group, or make the "choice" that you need to take a bio break halfway through a dungeon when that should have been done when it was just your time ticking and not four other people's time, then I reserve the right to be angry about my time being wasted.

Addendum: In a multiplayer game, there are many different ways to have fun. But the common element among all of that fun is time. When you waste my time by doing the kind of things listed above, you're wasting my ability to have fun per day. All I'm asking is that when you drop into a random, you do whatever you can to make it go as efficient, smooth, and quickly as possible so my time, and by association my fun per day, is not wasted.
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Octale on August 01, 2011, 10:22:33 PM
All you've proved Erathor, is that there's tons of variants of poker, and the dealer can pick the variant he/she likes best.

Nothing about how to have fun.  It's somewhat implied that more betting means more fun, but I can think of several session where that was absolutely not the case.
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Ebion on August 01, 2011, 10:25:45 PM
All you've proved Erathor, is that there's tons of variants of poker, and the dealer can pick the variant he/she likes best.

Nothing about how to have fun.  It's somewhat implied that more betting means more fun, but I can think of several session where that was absolutely not the case.

When it comes to poker, the stories, bluffing, and joking around that happens is generally the fun, not the game itself. When you play poker in an open, PuG, random pool enviornment, it becomes less about having fun and more about beating the other players to make money.

The same can be said about WoW. In a friends only environment, your enjoyment comes from messing around. But in a PuG enviornment, the only thing I want is the reward at the end as quickly and efficiently as possible. Is it really bad of me to not want to put up with Erathor's kind's bullshit when my goal is thus?
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Erathor on August 02, 2011, 01:43:08 AM
I don't know I think I did a fairly good job taking up this challenge. Stating one game is better than another in any situation goes right down "enjoyment" lane.

But in a PuG enviornment, the only thing I want is the reward at the end as quickly and efficiently as possible. Is it really bad of me to not want to put up with Erathor's kind's bullshit when my goal is thus?

I see random as a variant especially in WoW. Sure you'll get people that are trolling, ignorant, deaf to suggestions, as well as leaders and "doers". Through activity charts (I PuG a lot...), I've seen deviations as much as 150% in similarly geared people. These are people who are trying mind you to get through content or win at PvP. This means if you are pushing it, you can produce output for almost 2.5 people. So I understand the desire for a 12 man effective team plowing through a 5man.

So I take you also want the end game 5mans to be harder as well in order to filter who gets into the pool? I'm asking cause it kind of goes against your whole "get the reward as fast as possible" goal.
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Ebion on August 02, 2011, 07:27:21 AM
So I take you also want the end game 5mans to be harder as well in order to filter who gets into the pool? I'm asking cause it kind of goes against your whole "get the reward as fast as possible" goal.

I only have the opinion of getting the worst part of the game over with quickly because I know my lot is in the minority and aren't being developed for when it comes to 5 mans. If we were being developed for, having harder dungeons for better rewards then I'd be all for it, but I know it'll never happen because your lot will ram there heads against it until they're bloody then go cry on the forums and get it nerfed like EVERY. SINGE. PIECE. OF. CONTENT. SINCE. SUNWELL!
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Octale on August 02, 2011, 08:01:35 AM
Quote
I don't know I think I did a fairly good job taking up this challenge.
Only if you accept there's a direct correlation between the amount of betting and the amount of "fun"; I have direct experience to the contrary of this assertion.  More betting does not always mean more fun.  A valiant effort, but you haven't connected the logical dots sufficiently.

Quote
Stating one game is better than another in any situation goes right down "enjoyment" lane.
You are also ignoring that "better" might mean "more competitive", no?  This is the case when the explosion of Hold 'Em Poker is discussed in beginners poker books.  The balance of long term success through skill and short term success through luck makes Hold 'em a more competitive game for longer than Draw, Stud, or Omaha between amateurs and experienced players.
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Onin on August 02, 2011, 10:27:36 AM
I don't see how poker and dungeons are in any way comparable, seeing as one is a free-for-all environment whereas the other is a collaborative effort. If one guy on your poker table is not playing properly, your sense of challenge may be negatively influenced but on the other hand you win more money; in short, playing the game is less fun, winning the game is more fun. If a guy in your dungeon is not playing properly, playing the game is less fun AND winning the game (e.g. clearing the dungeon) is less fun because you KNOW it would've been faster without that idiot.
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Erathor on August 02, 2011, 04:37:15 PM
I guess you could accuse someone of king making at a poker table by playing poorly. I know pro players don't like to play "no limit" with amateurs because of a few reasons, one because of conduct and two they are more likely to king make/use risky behavior.
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Octale on August 02, 2011, 06:43:34 PM
Quote
I don't see how poker and dungeons are in any way comparable, seeing as one is a free-for-all environment whereas the other is a collaborative effort.
That's not quite the right comparison.

If WoW were more like a poker game, for example, some people would be "broke" and never get groups for group content.  Either they'd never make the minimum item level for heroics, or the vote to kick system would be implemented properly, and they would always be removed from dungeon groups.  Either way, the easiest way to not be "broke" anymore is to stop sucking, and all it takes to stop sucking is a little bit of "give a damn".

What we have in WoW today would be akin to being able to "All-in" every hand, and be able to reload infinitely after losing.  The consequences for being a bad player are nonexistent, and really, bad players are rewarded for being bad thanks to many raiders being forced to VP cap every week to stay competitive, and being turned into scrub boosting perpetual motion machines in the process.
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Erathor on August 03, 2011, 01:16:50 AM
I'm curious what the buy in should be for a random LFD at this point?

The consequences for being a bad player are nonexistent, and really, bad players are rewarded for being bad thanks to many raiders being forced to VP cap every week to stay competitive, and being turned into scrub boosting perpetual motion machines in the process.

You know I love this on so many levels. The idea that you don't believe bad players suffer any consequences, that "competitive raiders" are forced to do random LFDs to hit the weekly VP cap, or that there is no choice but to become a SBPMM (I know you love your acronyms and I'm giving this one, nice job!). It is fantastic, I must admit. I'll run with you if you need VPs...
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Octale on August 03, 2011, 08:19:43 AM
Quote
I'm curious what the buy in should be for a random LFD at this point?
Holy crap...I think you might have stumbled onto something.

Blizz will do anything for money, so why not add a $.99 "buy in" for full random LFD?
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Erathor on August 04, 2011, 03:50:41 PM
Hell you should be able to sell your runs right because you are so "pro"? Oh wait that happens now and might eventually officially happen soon with all the D3 news.

Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Octale on August 05, 2011, 01:39:32 AM
Hell you should be able to sell your runs right because you are so "pro"? Oh wait that happens now and might eventually officially happen soon with all the D3 news.


Small price to pay if the consequence is players choosing to not fail for a change.

Oh, and since you haven't seen this yet, you couldn't afford me anyway. :P
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Edge Damodred on August 05, 2011, 07:44:05 AM
Hell you should be able to sell your runs right because you are so "pro"? Oh wait that happens now and might eventually officially happen soon with all the D3 news.



Actually we're probably not too far off from that happening. We're getting to the point of legitimately selling virtual items being commonplace, that will lead to an eventual legitimate service industry within games being commonplace. Once you reach there, we of course head to legitimate elected officials in games.
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Darth Xanith on August 05, 2011, 08:09:43 AM
Once you reach there, we of course head to legitimate elected officials in games.

You mean like what Eve Online already has with that council which meets in Iceland...?
Title: Re: The Hoyle Challenge
Post by: Erathor on August 06, 2011, 12:29:16 AM
All interesting steps in the evolution of virtual worlds...

Hell I know many many people who have had or still have their accounts paid for in full because they were good reliable raiders and a more casual person with a tough job and not a lot of time paid for (and yes for the bonus XP/mount deal). That is why I put in the "official" wording.

Why, how much do you charge Octale?