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Archived => General Discussion => Topic started by: Octale on August 27, 2010, 10:50:50 PM

Title: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Octale on August 27, 2010, 10:50:50 PM
Discuss my latest blog post: http://www.vtwproductions.com/octale-blog/2010/8/27/rough-and-tumble.html
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Ebion on August 28, 2010, 01:41:32 AM
I want to play devils advocate for a moment and say that the only "argument" I've heard that I would buy against hazing and bullying is this:

When there is hazing going on in a Team, Club, or "Exclusive" school, it goes on because as a team, you want to pick apart the new guy to be sure that he'll fit into your group and you can trust him in a competitive enviornment. In non-exclusive environments like school, the only difference from the exclusive enviornment is that the child being bullied had no choice but to be in the enviornment in the first place, because school is obviously mandatory, and the situation will be the same regardless of what school the child goes too, or even worse if the child is put in a private school. Therefor, it could be detrimental to the child that they are being "forced" into an enviornment where they are being mentally or physically attacked. These children are obviously going to either stand up for themselves physically, gain the strength and the patience to get past the bullying, or break down and become depressed or suicidal. Honestly, only the ladder cases should be examined and I do believe they should be dealt with on case-by-case basis, rather than having these rallies and trying to "raise awareness" which is really a socially acceptable form of doing nothing, but pretending like you care. At the end of the day, some people just aren't mentally prepared for society, and those people should be held in school for longer or else given mental help to work through their issues.

Look, even in trying to play devils advocate my sense of outrage is just not going to let me continue to type this crap. I was bullied when I was in Middle School and High School, but I overcame that, came to blows with a few people, and quite frankly I think that overall I'm as strong as I am BECAUSE I've faced so much adversity in my life. Bullying is going to happen, and whether you want to admit it or not, overcoming a bully or being overcame as a bully is an essential part of learning what is and is not socially exceptable in an enviornment of your peers, and personally, I think there is no single better tool for teaching that than Elementry School playgrounds, Middle School Gym locker rooms or lunch rooms, or High School Hallways.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: AngryBadger on August 28, 2010, 03:33:43 PM
I am mentally ill individual (I'm sure that doesn't surprise many).   Because I was genetically unable to cope with the cruel world I have to hide from it basically.  While most people can take bullying and be stronger from it, few can't.  The saying what doesn't kill me makes me stronger well that's true but bullying has killed people.  Sometimes the mentally ill person takes a gun and kills others instead; some blame the music, some the parents, some the bullying, some the government.  However what is needed is screening to find out who can take the pain and who can't.  I'm not sure what we can do about the ones who can't other than put them in an asylum and lock them up and take care of them til they die, or at the very least, medicate them properly and have group concling or something; it works for me.

When I was bullied as a kid I burst into tears until middle school when I just attack them.  If I knew how to shoot and had a gun, there woulda been a shooting at my school.  I didn't comment suicide cause I hated the bullies so much I wouldn't give the satisfaction of killing me.  As a child, I had no innocents.  Moreover, today I still can't get over the bullying I had in school, and no amount of therapy or ignorant people saying "get over it" will make it go away.

I don't believe bullying to the point of driving someone to suicide shouldn't be punished because it will just make suicide more sweet.

One last tidbit of info for you that my conslor told me. Mental Illness has to have 2 things to some up a genetic marker and a trigger  School bullying is often the trigger.  If we can take away the instinct to break people down, we would stop a lot of mental illness, but it's cheaper, easier to treat the symptom -- the mentally ill-- and not the problem.  

edit: Reread it and found a mistake.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Daz on August 29, 2010, 12:48:23 PM
The writing is on the wall. Kids get verbally bullied every day for whatever reason, cut themselves, end up in hospital, scarred for life. Your team analogy is irrelevant because public elementary/high schools are not teams. The class is 30 something kids and one teacher giving them all the same information. The class isn't a football team and you can't pick and chose the best players. The law mandates every kid goes to school and they will go there no matter how good/bad they are at it until they reach the age of 16. Your child gets nothing positive from being called ugly or a fagg*t on a daily basis. Why not stamp it out? Why not punish children who verbally mock others? Why not make a safe learning environment where your young children will be respected by their peers? There is no reason to allow this profanity or disrespect in public schools, especially elementary schools.

Your main point is that the kids will become stronger against adversity if they are bullied, but why should they be expected to tolerate this to begin with? Detention, suspension, expulsion, beating over the head with a ruler, I do not care how you punish it just do something about it instead of expecting the kids to cope with it. How can our kids "be a kid" and enjoy the innocence of it if they have to deal with this treatment every single day?
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: GoHF on August 29, 2010, 06:36:53 PM
Bullying is a childish behavior, and it's one way of learning about hierarchies, the self and the others, and boundaries. If the lesson isn't being learned, then it becomes a problem. Just like putting your fingers on the electric socket, if you do it once and learn that's kinda ok, if you keep doing it, then there's a problem.

Hazing is the tamer adult version of bullying. As a rite of passage, I have little respect for it. The psychological need to humiliate, belittle or force upon others a sense of hierarchical superiority is a flaw on the part of the hazers, an inability to connect with others normally and an inability to achieve whatever they want to achieve through hazing by more civilized means. In the case of hazing in a professional setting, where each individual is being paid individually to perform a task as a team, in a team they neither own nor assembled, it is that much more pitiful. If as a grown man and a professional, you cannot work with another professional before seeing how they react to being singled out by the group for humiliation or belittling, then you've probably missed the point of being both a grown man and a professional.

edit: Oh, and yes, people who waste their time waxing poetic in rallies or demonstrations are doing just that, wasting their time. They could probably achieve the same by eating icecream and reading a joke from the daily newspaper.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Sekani on August 29, 2010, 11:23:16 PM
I got picked on a lot when I was a kid. I didn't like it, but eventually I developed ways of handling it. I seriously believe that I'm a better person now because of that experience. This is all part of being a kid.

Bullying tends to imply something more severe than teasing, usually physical harassment. I agree that this is something that does need to be taken care of by supervisory figures, but it wouldn't hurt our kids to develop ways of coping with this as well. I had the physique of a celery stick in high school, so I'm glad I learned how to talk my way out of a few altercations.

I think that it's more empowering and better for self-esteem if we teach our children ways of solving their own problems that don't always involve telling mommy or daddy or the principal. Otherwise you end up with grown men who throw temper tantrums as their way of dealing with adversity.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Feriluce on August 29, 2010, 11:47:08 PM
And how exactly is mental violence so different from physical violence?
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Vaulisel on August 30, 2010, 02:52:22 AM
I was bullied for years in high school, by a variety of methods, from name calling, to theft, to physical violence. Not by a group of bullies, but by what amounted to virtually everyone in the school; I was the consensus target. And the teachers were guilty of participating in the name calling too, I suppose in order to build some kind of twisted rapport with the bullies. Every day of school was a suffocating and depressing experience, and there was nothing to be done about it. I never even understood why I was being picked on, it just started one day and carried on for years.

What do you suppose it "taught" me? How did it make me "stronger"? It was the single most unpleasant span of years in my life, with no bright patches to speak of. What I "learned" was the only way to attain peace in school was to be paranoid that literally everyone was out to get me (which they were, whenever it was convenient) and that the only way to ward them off when caught was to become a complete psychopath. By the time I had risen toward the senior end of school, most of the significantly larger bullies had left school, and the rest had come to fear being on my bad side, because one day their bravado would come at a bad time and bite them in the ass.

In what world is the lesson that paranoia and psychopathic behaviour is the best way a useful life lesson? It was only when I went to university that I gradually began to realise that most people don't give a shit about my existence, and this was a relief, because I wasn't some form of twisted entertainment for the masses anymore. I don't feel I gained anything but grief and pain from my time being bullied. I am an emotionally weaker and more socially damaged person than I otherwise would have been as a result. Not to mention that if bullying wasn't considered to be a socially acceptable pastime in my school there would have been fewer limps and concussions amongst those bullies who pushed me too far.

Bullying is bonding for bullies, not victims. I was a sacrifice to the mob, nothing more.

That said, I will happily spit on anyone who says anything about raising awareness. If the teachers were ignorant of the bullying they wouldn't have been joining in the name-calling. The problem is no one gives a shit. Bullying is already considered a natural part of school life, and people like me are the acceptable losses who never had an opportunity to enjoy school. No one thinks that it is wrong for a few to suffer for the enjoyment of the rest. There is no awareness problem here. The problem is a moral failure of modern society which thinks that rallies about awareness is sufficient to justify looking the other way the rest of the time, while they raise their children to believe that bullying is okay.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: AngryBadger on August 30, 2010, 07:42:23 AM
I think we got off on a tangent on whether bullying is wrong or tolerable.

The rally is a stupid idea that makes people feel better for a while, of course, that goes for any rally.

But I do disagree with Octale when he said the statement "I am someone, and I can change the world." is crap.  I believe if you can make anyone feel good for even a split second you change the world for the positive, and the reverse is true.  You never know who the next Hitler or Napoleon or Churchhill will be.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Octale on August 30, 2010, 08:39:30 AM
I think we got off on a tangent on whether bullying is wrong or tolerable.

The rally is a stupid idea that makes people feel better for a while, of course, that goes for any rally.

But I do disagree with Octale when he said the statement "I am someone, and I can change the world." is crap.  I believe if you can make anyone feel good for even a split second you change the world for the positive, and the reverse is true.  You never know who the next Hitler or Napoleon or Churchhill will be.

Name for me one thing you've done that's actually made the world a better place.  33 years on this planet, and I can honestly say, OnHVW included, that I've done a grand total of nothing to make the world a better place.  The point is you don't have to have delusions of grandeur about saving the world or being somebody to live a perfectly happy, normal, moral life.  Deconstructing the Snowflake Myth is a required first step to saving the future, as far as I am concerned.

If you think you're not judged or criticized in your adult life, you're naive.  Most adults have the common courtesy to do it under their breath or do it when you're not around.  Why sugar coat the formative years and paint a picture of a world that is so obviously a lie, just to protect people you are perfectly comfortable giving the power they have away to anyone that will take it.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: AngryBadger on August 30, 2010, 09:11:26 AM
I think we got off on a tangent on whether bullying is wrong or tolerable.

The rally is a stupid idea that makes people feel better for a while, of course, that goes for any rally.

But I do disagree with Octale when he said the statement "I am someone, and I can change the world." is crap.  I believe if you can make anyone feel good for even a split second you change the world for the positive, and the reverse is true.  You never know who the next Hitler or Napoleon or Churchhill will be.

Name for me one thing you've done that's actually made the world a better place.  33 years on this planet, and I can honestly say, OnHVW included, that I've done a grand total of nothing to make the world a better place.  The point is you don't have to have delusions of grandeur about saving the world or being somebody to live a perfectly happy, normal, moral life.  Deconstructing the Snowflake Myth is a required first step to saving the future, as far as I am concerned.

If you think you're not judged or criticized in your adult life, you're naive.  Most adults have the common courtesy to do it under their breath or do it when you're not around.  Why sugar coat the formative years and paint a picture of a world that is so obviously a lie, just to protect people you are perfectly comfortable giving the power they have away to anyone that will take it.

Well, I help a friend with her costume, and she won the costume contest.  That may not be like me starting World War 3 or something, but I see it I effected events even in a minor way.  However, I guess you think you have to change the world in a significant way to effect history and save or destroy millions to change the world in your mind.  I see it as a point of view and what is changing the world.  It's more like the butterfly making a hurricane effect.

I personally think everyone is miserable life.  When you honestly is there nothing you want you can't have, if so you are not happy.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Vaulisel on August 30, 2010, 10:25:39 AM
Name for me one thing you've done that's actually made the world a better place.  33 years on this planet, and I can honestly say, OnHVW included, that I've done a grand total of nothing to make the world a better place.  The point is you don't have to have delusions of grandeur about saving the world or being somebody to live a perfectly happy, normal, moral life.  Deconstructing the Snowflake Myth is a required first step to saving the future, as far as I am concerned.
Whether anything makes the world a better place can be debatable. There are plenty of people who believe the world will be a better place if humanity were utterly wiped out tomorrow, but I really don't appreciate their sentiment that I'd be better off dead.

You know for a fact that OnHVW has made a difference in peoples' lives; you've read out letters on air to that very effect. The world that they saw was brighter for a day than it otherwise would have been without it. Not all of us feel we are so prone to delusions of grandeur that we need a nihilistic viewpoint to keep ourselves psychologically afloat.

I'm currently working on some research regarding antibiotics. I don't know how it will all pan out, and I certainly don't expect to uncover anything like the next penicillin. But the work I do might make a difference, it might make someone healthier and maybe even one day lead to saving a life. It might not. But I don't feel like my time is wasted trying.

In a big way I agree with you. The guy who discovered penicillin brought about the saving of countless lives. He certainly wasn't born to do it; he did it through hard work (and a moderate dose of serendipity, as with most medical discoveries). He wasn't born with a special organ that let him do great things while others wallowed in obscurity. Giving people a puffed up opinion of their worth while they are young isn't going to foster a spirit of striving to be better.

Then again, your rhetoric sounds like you prefer to advocate for a Darwinistic system that produces masses of people who have been so ground down by the system that they have no hope to ever be anything more than drones in a sociological machine, and so should quit trying before they waste their time, with a cream of spoiled brats who bully their way to whatever they want floating on top. (Epic strawman, I know; noone waste their time pointing it out.)

The "unique snowflake" is a perversion of what the original "you are special" style message was originally intended to convey. The whole point of the message was not to tell people that they somehow provide a service of unique and great import to the world by existing, but to tell them that the status quo is not god; just as you aren't born to be great, you aren't born completely without hope that you can do something with your life. There's no need to let life stagnate just because you won't shatter continents with your footsteps or give life to the dying with each breath. I think it's worthwhile to do my best at what I do and to give a damn about it.

I agree that the Snowflake Myth needs to go. But I don't think that the world needs a myth of hopelessness and defeatism to replace it. It's okay to lead a normal life, just as I and everyone I know probably will. But the fact that you might never make a difference isn't a good enough reason not to do your best at whatever you can do, not in my book. I keep working at what I do not because I think I am destined to make a difference but because I think it is worthwhile to try.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: AngryBadger on August 30, 2010, 02:53:40 PM
I have been thinking and the first thing we need to do is know what "Bullying" is.  I've been called names.  I have been threaten.  I've been physically irritated (Wedgies, thumping on the ear, kick in the back of the chair ect.)  I've been beaten up.  Technically all this goes to bullying.

I think teaching kids coping skills is the best way negate name calling.  "Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me," helps many kids.  Other kids need a little more training than that, because words hurt if you can't stop them, so we need to teach the people who can't figure that out on there own.

Threats are becoming more punishable now a days.  In my day in my school, the bully said, "After school, I'm going to beat you to a pulp," I tell the teacher and she says, "I can't do anything about it until you are beaten up, and I'm not going to waste my time watching over your silly little fights."  Most of the times I just ran through the halls to keep from being beaten and got in trouble for it.

Physical irritation rarely got stop when I was at school unless it interrupted the class.

When I was beaten up pretty badly in fifth grade, the police were called.  Seeing this happen at my house the police did nothing.

Bullying created what I am: An Agoraphobe.  I truly believe everyone is out to get me.  I'm in therapy but it's hard cause I don't trust my therapist not to kill me.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Ebion on August 30, 2010, 03:32:22 PM
I think teaching kids coping skills is the best way negate name calling.  "Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me,"

Actually, it's more like "Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but words mentally scar me forever." in American Society, because god forbid the fat kid gets called fat, the preppy kid gets called a spoiled brat, or the behavioral issue kids get called punks, because that could possibly harm them mentally, think of the children! D:

Personally I agree with Vaulisel on a lot of what he said, but realistically I can't help but feel as if that's a far to optimistic view on the issue, especially since Darwanistic behavoirs can be observed, but the "Your Special" or the original "snowflake" myth can't be observed, especially not when it's a natural occurring thing to be judgmental, being that the people that treat you like crap are "bad" people, and therefor couldn't possibly be special, unique, or anything else considering that "Special" has been bastardized to mean "The perfect little angel who can never do wrong even when they do."
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Pravda on August 30, 2010, 07:43:35 PM
Go Vaulisel! Go Badger! The most sane people on this thread  ;)

Here is a little conversation, completely without snowflakes, between Q&A

Q: Why do bullies bully?
A: To feel good about themsef!
Q: What is wrong with school trying to make children feel good about themselves?
A: Nothing.
Q: Then why do bullies bully to feel good about themself?
A: Because school makes them feel terrible.
Q: So you are defending the bully's?
A: No, but you will find that it's not the "white-an-nerdy" who do the bullying. (I am referring to Weird Al not a race debate) Bully's are those that score lowest in their classes. Same thing at work. It's people who feel small that belittle others. Because we all need to feel good about ourselves. One way or another.

Q: How does school make them feel terrible?
A: Because school only consists of one type of learning and punishes creativity.
Q: Surely school approves of creativity?
A: School is as far from creativity as can be. E.g. in math you will learn that 1+1 =2. A more creative solution would be to say that 1+1 = 11. Your math teacher is not going to approve.
Q: That's ridiculous, one plus one is two!
A: This is part of the problem, school only teaches subjects where there is a set answer. Even in subjects such as literature there is a "right way" to understand a poem and and if you give this as your answer you will get a good score - if you think the poem is about something else, you clearly "haven't understood" said poem.

Q: Well, what is this "one type of learning" you talk about, school teaches a lot of subjects.
A: Yes, and all the subjects are treated in the same manner. You acquire knowledge by reading a text, which you will have to memorize. E.g. understanding history is not as important as remembering dates and lists of names.
Q: OK smart-ass, how would you do it!
A: I don't know. But I do know there are different ways of learning and different types of knowledge. Learning to ride a bike is not something you can get from a book, yet you can learn the knowledge to do it. This is a different type of knowledge not recognized as such, so we categorize as "a skill". School only recognizes the mnemonic way of learning, so if you are potentially good at say, understanding and repairing cars, it won't help your grades.

Q: I think you do not understand the importance of theory, you only come up with "practical" examples.
A: Well, it is a practical world. Theory don't bake bread. We need an education that considers more than one way of learning and more than one type of knowledge. And we need to appreciate both theory and practice. "The best of both worlds."
Q: Yea, you have a good theory there but it's not practical.
A: I know what you mean, in order to make a difference we need to change how people think about learning, knowledge and values.
Q: Values? You lost me there.
A: Yes values. Theory is perceived as having more worth than practice, even by those who do the "practice bit".

Q: You never answered my question about why school makes bully's feel terrible.
A: Well, its because school only teaches one way of learning.
Q You're just repeating yourself.
A: Ha-ha - so are you.
Q: He-he - yes - what do you think about VtW?.
A: They're making a difference.
Q: - as in....
A: The world is a better place with VtW in it :D
Q: True....  Btw - what do you mean "we" have to make a change?
A: Well it has to start by thinking about it.
Q: Ha! That's theory.
A: Ye. Happy now?
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: AngryBadger on August 30, 2010, 09:07:35 PM
"I am someone, and I can change the world."

I made a mistake and misremembered the statement.  The Statement is "I am somebody, and I can make a Difference."

Making a difference doesn't even come close to changing the world.  If you can make a depressed person laugh you made a difference.  Same if you make a happy person feel like crap.  Difference can mean slight change in a slight way.  The way Octale acted I thought it was change the world.  Anyone can make a difference in one person life.  You can make a difference in your own life.

Basically, to make a difference is to change something that left alone wouldn't happen.  Like Totalbiscuit kind encourage me to play WoW, and Octale encourage me to quit.  They both made a difference in my life cause if I never heard the podcast I'd never played WoW.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: AngryBadger on August 30, 2010, 09:13:07 PM
Go Vaulisel! Go Badger! The most sane people on this thread  ;)

I find this funny since my first post starts out that I'm mentally ill lol
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Octale on August 31, 2010, 12:29:40 AM
Quote
Q: What is wrong with school trying to make children feel good about themselves?
A: Nothing.
False assumption

As for the rest, blame a system that rewards only performance on standardized tests, pays roughly 50% of private industry (in part because the pay is derived from property tax dollars), and has the concept of tenure where effort on the part of the instructor is required only until tenure is acquired, at which point an instructor can coast for the rest of his/her career, unless the above mentioned standardized test score start to dip.

None of this has anything to do with the gaggle of people willing to just throw away the power they have as an individual to people who have no right to claim it.  You choose to throw that power away, just as you choose to let a subset 4 years of your life ruin the entirety of the next 60 of years of your life.

I'm judged every day.  First, for being heavy in the "second fittest city in America".  Second, because I'm 33 and single with no kids.  Third, because I do a 2 hour internet radio show about video games and, oh by the way, I'm a founding partner of an internet radio station.  I could go on.  Yes, it would be infinitely easier to just give away the power I have as an individual to the people judging me.  I will never give them the satisfaction of beating me...ever.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Eid on August 31, 2010, 12:49:02 AM
@Pravda, that conversation sounded worthy of Zaltu (http://oneroguesjourney.com/) :)

Eid
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Zerodaimaru on August 31, 2010, 07:40:10 AM
My high-school life was an absolute hell. I'm no special flower in this fact and yes it was the worse 5 years (should have been 4 but I spent 2 months in hospital/recovery in grade 11 witch caused me to fail a few classes). And you know what? I'm glad it was! Because it taught me how to stand up for myself. How to take scathing remarks and preconceived judgments throw at me by other people about my own self worth and pitch them right in a bin on the curb. It taught me that the only person in the world who could possibly judge me with any kind of meaning that meant anything to me was myself. And I wouldn't trade that feeling of empowerment that has carried on into my adult life for anything in the world. No I'm never going to change the world and in the grand scheme of thing my life will matter very little, but that's okay.

This rally is trying to take away that feeling from these kids. Yes if bullying is discovered it should be dealt with to the fullest extent available. However all this is doing is giving kids false impressions that it will never happen to them again ever and that is wrong. Because after this rally nothing will change, nothing will be better and things will probably be worse for the kids that attended this rally. I remember many a gathering in my elementary school days with the teachers all talking about how bullying was wrong. That was just as effective as this rally is going to be. And what if it did work? what then? It would be the same as taking someone who has lived their entire life in a germ free environment and then tossing them out on the streets on a major city. How long do you think they would last? Without hardship to build up our defense be it biological or social when we are exposed to the "real world" things will go badly.

Just my two cents on this pointless rally

~Zero~
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: AngryBadger on August 31, 2010, 05:14:25 PM
From what I'm hearing most people who think bullying is tolerable or sadly seemingly OK and necessary, I understand that if you don't learn that life sucks and then you die at an early age you can't cope with it in the adult world.  The thing is if you are harassed at work you can sue, but the same thing can't be done at grade school or high school.  If in adult life you are harassed, you can simply leave; you can't do that at school.

The question I ask is: What does bullying teach?
I think the answer is: Everyone hates everyone else just at least a little.  At least that's what I learned.  The only real solution to the problem would be every one gets a gun and if someone hurts your feeling you can shoot them.  This would either end the human race or stop people from being a douche.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Ebion on September 01, 2010, 11:28:13 PM
The thing is if you are harassed at work you can sue, but the same thing can't be done at grade school or high school.

Except that if you go around suing all of co-workers for harassment of any form YOU become a liability and nobody will tolerate you and you won't have a job for much longer if you can't tolerate harassment.

The question I ask is: What does bullying teach?
I think the answer is: Everyone hates everyone else just at least a little.  At least that's what I learned.  The only real solution to the problem would be every one gets a gun and if someone hurts your feeling you can shoot them.  This would either end the human race or stop people from being a douche.

What you're proposing is highly irrational, though I agree with the concept. When somebody wrongs you, the first thing you WANT to do is retaliate, whether physically or mentally, but if it becomes socially acceptable or otherwise unstoppable to just lash out when you get teased, there would be utter chaos. There is a time and a place for lashing out, but if you do it all the time, it becomes meaningless.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Thistledown on September 02, 2010, 08:50:00 PM
Quote from: AngryBadger
The only real solution to the problem would be every one gets a gun and if someone hurts your feeling you can shoot them.  This would either end the human race or stop people from being a douche.

We would cease to have a society at that point. Part of us having a society relies on a few key things: truth and safety. If there were no social repercussions to lying or incentives for telling the truth, humans would never trust each other, and would drift apart; we would be come a race of tony bands of companions at best, and die off quickly at worst. If there were no social repercussion for violence, specifically lethal, again the race would branch off in a similar fashion, gathering towards those they trusted and felt safe with. Even so, these small communities of trust and safety would be societies in their own right, still upholding the near universal virtues of truth and safety.

Of course, it doesn't mean everyone is truthful or peaceful, it just means that truth and safety are integral to any long-lasting commune of humans.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Daz on September 05, 2010, 09:01:23 AM
I think we got off on a tangent on whether bullying is wrong or tolerable.

The rally is a stupid idea that makes people feel better for a while, of course, that goes for any rally.

But I do disagree with Octale when he said the statement "I am someone, and I can change the world." is crap.  I believe if you can make anyone feel good for even a split second you change the world for the positive, and the reverse is true.  You never know who the next Hitler or Napoleon or Churchhill will be.

Name for me one thing you've done that's actually made the world a better place.  33 years on this planet, and I can honestly say, OnHVW included, that I've done a grand total of nothing to make the world a better place.  The point is you don't have to have delusions of grandeur about saving the world or being somebody to live a perfectly happy, normal, moral life.  Deconstructing the Snowflake Myth is a required first step to saving the future, as far as I am concerned.

If you think you're not judged or criticized in your adult life, you're naive.  Most adults have the common courtesy to do it under their breath or do it when you're not around.  Why sugar coat the formative years and paint a picture of a world that is so obviously a lie, just to protect people you are perfectly comfortable giving the power they have away to anyone that will take it.

If you want to you can go join Dostoyevsky and the other existentialists at any time. Just don't tell the 8 year old in public school that he his life is meaningless. The schools are funded by taxes that everyone pays and are open to everyone. If you don't like it you can send your kids to a private school where verbal bullying is tolerated. I just don't want an educational system that crushes the dreams of our children in hopes of "making them stronger" for it. Frankly, I think the whole idea of hurting children to make them stronger is barbaric and stupid.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Octale on September 05, 2010, 11:33:19 AM
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If you want to you can go join Dostoyevsky and the other existentialists at any time. Just don't tell the 8 year old in public school that he his life is meaningless. The schools are funded by taxes that everyone pays and are open to everyone. If you don't like it you can send your kids to a private school where verbal bullying is tolerated. I just don't want an educational system that crushes the dreams of our children in hopes of "making them stronger" for it. Frankly, I think the whole idea of hurting children to make them stronger is barbaric and stupid.
There a huge difference between acknowledging the insignificance of the individual, and prompting that there's nothing wrong with that insignificance, and telling someone their life is meaningless.  Foster the attainable dreams absolutely, while simultaneously crushing the unattainable dreams (for example, don't fill the 8 year old's head full of nonsense that he/she can be a profession football player when he/she can't even start on his/her Pop Warner team).

None of this has anything to do with teasing or hazing either.  Don't understand the difference?  Then you need perspective, especially if you take hallway teasing and pervert it into believing your life is meaningless.  The only person responsible for that illogical leap is you.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Daz on September 05, 2010, 11:34:21 PM
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If you want to you can go join Dostoyevsky and the other existentialists at any time. Just don't tell the 8 year old in public school that he his life is meaningless. The schools are funded by taxes that everyone pays and are open to everyone. If you don't like it you can send your kids to a private school where verbal bullying is tolerated. I just don't want an educational system that crushes the dreams of our children in hopes of "making them stronger" for it. Frankly, I think the whole idea of hurting children to make them stronger is barbaric and stupid.
There a huge difference between acknowledging the insignificance of the individual, and prompting that there's nothing wrong with that insignificance, and telling someone their life is meaningless.  Foster the attainable dreams absolutely, while simultaneously crushing the unattainable dreams (for example, don't fill the 8 year old's head full of nonsense that he/she can be a profession football player when he/she can't even start on his/her Pop Warner team).

None of this has anything to do with teasing or hazing either.  Don't understand the difference?  Then you need perspective, especially if you take hallway teasing and pervert it into believing your life is meaningless.  The only person responsible for that illogical leap is you.

This is getting into philosophy and life principles. We aren't filling their heads with unattainable goals "like being a pro football player". The entire I am somebody pledge was written by high school kids who were fed up with bullying. Not by teachers or educational policy makers. From what I can tell the intention was to encourage kids to report bullying, not to increase self esteem.

Now we can debate the advantages and disadvantages of it all day but the fact is our culture favors the infamous "snowflake" idea. Everything from the movies to the major religion in America tells children and adults that they are special and have a purpose. When it comes down to it, their your kids and you can tell them whatever you want. That is the parent's choice and it is their responsibility, not the local bully's. If Tom wants to tell his kid that he will someday be an astronaut so be it. It is not my place, not your place, and not the bully's place to intervene.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Ebion on September 06, 2010, 06:25:44 AM
If Tom wants to tell his kid that he will someday be an astronaut so be it. It is not my place, not your place, and not the bully's place to intervene.

So you think it's perfectly okay for Tom to tell little Jimmy that he can be an astronaut someday and allow him to crush himself under the weight of what he thinks are parental expectations and a system that encourages punishing failures with a worthless career and job due to poor academic achievements, but it's certainly wrong and distasteful that the local school bully calls him "a stupid-head" and he evaluates his self-worth and realizes that he's not all that special and abandons his dream before he gets hurt worse than a little teasing could ever do?

Look, I'm not saying that kids shouldn't have dreams, but at the end of the day, they're just DREAMS, and the vast majority of the people who make them come true don't do so by blindly believing that they're special, and they certainly weren't the kids who weren't picked on, hazed, or generally straight out told that they're not going to amount to nothing.

Without bullying, hazing, or other kinds of childhood adversity, how would someone as important as a scientist be able to deal with others calling their theory into question? If scientists truly believed that they were unique snowflakes and never dealt with adversity, how would they ever be able to defend or re-evaluate their theories? The same concept applies here, if little Jimmy is bullied, and has to re-evaluate the shattered remains of his self-esteem, he'll realize what his strong and weak points and adjust himself to compensate, as any animal would after facing an adversity. Granted, it might take some time and some tears, but everyone has to deal with adversity in one form or another, or else nobody would ever be able to handle being told that they're wrong, or even being able to handle being told "no".....OH WAIT I SEE WUT AMERICA DID HERE!
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: AngryBadger on September 07, 2010, 04:17:32 PM
I'm hoping there just is a lack of mutual understanding what the terms 'bullying' and 'difference'.

From what some people are saying, they think bullying is no more than being called stupid or dumbass all the time.  From my stand point, it's being harassed to think people or a person is out to kill you.  Basically I'm saying.If you haven't been in FEAR OR YOUR LIFE you haven't been bullied.  If you think different that's where the miscommunication is.

From what people have been saying the think making a difference is nothing short than having you name remembered after thousands of years like Cesar or Shakespear or Homer.  I'm sure no one here is under the dulsions that the world would fall apart without there existence, but I think the fact that a human interacts with other humans and changes something about those humans.

And honestly the thing was CAN make a Difference.  NOT WILL.  The fact that every human breathes, eats and poops means they instantly change the environment around them and that is making a difference.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Octale on September 08, 2010, 08:20:46 PM
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Basically I'm saying.If you haven't been in FEAR OR YOUR LIFE you haven't been bullied.  If you think different that's where the miscommunication is.
Then I think you need to have a long chat with the people at the rally in the vignette.  Note specifically the kid reciting about another kid that was taunted into committing suicide.  Taunted?  The only thing I could ever taunt people into doing is kicking my ass.  Of course, if Angry Badger's definition of bullying was the one we all agreed on, we wouldn't need anti-bullying rallies, because they would be anti-violence rallies.  We can all agree that violence is bad, but we're not dealing with people who believe only violence is bad.  We're dealing with traffickers in human misery.  The people that made below average acceptable, and mediocre exceptional.  The people that completely disenfranchised the academically exceptional.  Of course, they are the same people that took all the nobility out of being a mechanic, a janitor, a garbage man, a plumber, etc.

So, you're entitled to a good GPA and completely adversity free experience in high school, and a good enough ACT score to get into college, but if you can't cut it there, we'll judge you for the rest of your life for not being able to get it done the first time we put any pressure on you whatsoever, without giving you the tools to handle the pressure in the first place.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Red Dog Dragon on September 09, 2010, 11:14:43 AM
My take on the rally and the phrase "I am somebody" has more to do with try to encourge someone who's being picked on to stand up for oneself (or if you see someone getting picked on, lend a hand) and don't just take it or allow it to drag you down to the point that you consider suicide because someone called you a name.

Not that I think a rally would magically fix all life's ills, but I don't disagree with the message and I think it works along with Oct's mindset.   People are assholes, learn how to deal with them and move on, don't give up and just sit in a dark room wearing makeup and write bad poetry.

I got picked on all the time in school though I wasn't bullied physically.  I can only think of one time when someone challanged me physically in high school (first day of freshmen year even.)  I didn't back down, almost got in a fist fight right in the classroom before the teachers broke it up and the kid never bothered me again.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: AngryBadger on September 09, 2010, 04:44:36 PM
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Basically I'm saying.If you haven't been in FEAR OR YOUR LIFE you haven't been bullied.  If you think different that's where the miscommunication is.
Then I think you need to have a long chat with the people at the rally in the vignette.  Note specifically the kid reciting about another kid that was taunted into committing suicide.  Taunted?  The only thing I could ever taunt people into doing is kicking my ass.  Of course, if Angry Badger's definition of bullying was the one we all agreed on, we wouldn't need anti-bullying rallies, because they would be anti-violence rallies.  We can all agree that violence is bad, but we're not dealing with people who believe only violence is bad.  We're dealing with traffickers in human misery.  The people that made below average acceptable, and mediocre exceptional.  The people that completely disenfranchised the academically exceptional.  Of course, they are the same people that took all the nobility out of being a mechanic, a janitor, a garbage man, a plumber, etc.

So, you're entitled to a good GPA and completely adversity free experience in high school, and a good enough ACT score to get into college, but if you can't cut it there, we'll judge you for the rest of your life for not being able to get it done the first time we put any pressure on you whatsoever, without giving you the tools to handle the pressure in the first place.

To be honest I watched it only once and didn't analyze everything.  Also it was CNN and I don't trust CNN I think they edited it a lot.  Anyway, I think you might want to do a blog about how schools are lowing there standards.  I never had problems in High School cause I was with the 'smart' kids; in elementary school, being smart was a bad thing, it got you beaten up.

And it only took words to make me fear for my live at age 8.  The guy says, "I'm going to kill you, and no one is going to care when I do."  He's also 8 and has proven to me he hates me.

World has change dramitically over 20 plus year.  I told my roommate, "If you take, move and touch my meds, I'm going to kill you."  After that I get fired and kick out of Disney World.
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Pravda on September 28, 2010, 06:21:49 PM
There a huge difference between acknowledging the insignificance of the individual, and prompting that there's nothing wrong with that insignificance, and telling someone their life is meaningless.  Foster the attainable dreams absolutely, while simultaneously crushing the unattainable dreams (for example, don't fill the 8 year old's head full of nonsense that he/she can be a profession football player when he/she can't even start on his/her Pop Warner team).

Ah - Octale my friend - You have been waching the animated movie Z - and thougt it was the gospel - when in truth, it was made for entertainment ;-)
Title: Re: Discuss "Rough and Tumble" Here
Post by: Pravda on September 28, 2010, 06:31:47 PM
People are assholes, learn how to deal with them and move on, ...

NOT - people are not default assholes - but there are some - when you meet them, leav'em behind.